A harder, bubblier soap

[chibi-soap]

Hi,

I made some soap before christmas which we really like,
4% Avocado OIl
15% CO
15% Lard
8% Macadmia
58% OO

But I'd like a harder, bubblier soap and after playing about with soap calc I came up with
80%lard
5% castor oil
15% CO

Soapcalc says Hardness 45, Cleansing 11, Condition 48, Bubbly 15, Creamy 39
Compared
with the original Hardness 30, Cleansing 10, Condition 65, Bubbly 10, Creamy 20

So I've lost some conditioning, but gained on everything else. Is there something I'm missing. Some reason experienced people wouldn't make a soap with just those three ingredients?

 

[Jeanea]

Chibi, we know that the oil we select determines the outcome of the bar. This is where I start when putting together the recipe. What properties do I want from my oils, not just if it will hard enough or conditioning enough. Just because soapcalc doesn't give you a high hardness number, doesn't mean the soap wont be hard. In fact, if you feel the soap with be too soft you can always add sodium lactate to help in that area and you won't need a lot. I use about 1oz for a 2.5lb batch of soap.

You just have to play around with it and test like a 1lb batch to see if you like it. Now lard with make a decent bar of soap all on it's own. Many soaper don't use it, well, because it's lard. Many soapers cater to their customer base, and lots of people would prefer a more vegetable based soap. From what I've experienced, when people see lard on the label they are running for the hills.

If your overall goal is for a harder bar, try the sodium lactate with your recipe. That plus your cure time for whatever recipe you choose will give you a good hard bar of soap. I've done this with 100% olive oil soap. The overall outcome was still a hard bar of soap.

A trick to try for more bubbles, you can add some sugar to your water. About a teaspoon for a smaller batch of soap. Let it dissolve completely, then add your lye. Just know that adding sugar can move your soap along faster depending on your fragrance because sugar will increase the temp of your soap.

 

[SudsanSoaps]

I would probly substitute 20% of the lard for Olive and/or avocado but otherwise I think that would make a really nice bar of soap.

I would add some of the softer oils just cause it would seem more balanced to me. And it has seemed to me like too hard a bar takes too much work to transfer enough soap or requires too much reloading to suit me.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Your proposed recipe is closer to what I personally like than your first one, but it's still a bit off, IMO.

Like Sudsandsoaps says above me, I'd recommend dropping the lard to 60% and adding back olive, avocado or safflower (high oleic). It's just a better balanced bar, and it has less chance of inadvertently smelling "lardy."

 

[chibi-soap]

Thank you everyone for your responses. It seems the consensus is that the soap will be nicer with some more liquid fats, e.g. OO. I'm wondering what exactly that will add to the soap. People have said "nicer" and "better balanced" but what exactly does that mean?

Thanks for the sodium lactate and sugar ideas. Sometimes I do add those things, and sometimes I don't, probably because I wasn't clear in my head why I was doing that., so from now on I'll always add them.

I think I probably just have to make a bunch of soap and test it! Playing around with longer curing times would be good too. Hmmm...that will require orgnaisational skills....

 

[shunt2011]

As BrewerGeorge said adding a bit of Olive, Avocado, Sunflower etc is more balanced as those too add to the whole of the soap. I find too much lard I can smell it. I don't exceed 50% personally though some do go higher. The rest is split up with Olive, Sunflower or Avocado as well as CO & Castor oil. Give it a try, you may or may not see a difference but his all personal what you like in the end. That's why testing is so important.

Also, just a good cure will make a difference in the hardness of your soap. 100% Olive oil gets brick hard after a very long cure. Adding salt to your water and dissolving it before adding the lye will help with hardness or as stated Sodium Lactate. I use about 1-1 1/2 oz for a 5 lb batch. I mostly find that SL helps with unmolding the soap after gel.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

Thank you everyone for your responses. It seems the consensus is that the soap will be nicer with some more liquid fats, e.g. OO. I'm wondering what exactly that will add to the soap. People have said "nicer" and "better balanced" but what exactly does that mean?
...

We mean a better balance of lather characteristics. 100% lard is pretty hard to lather and once you get some lather the bubbles are tiny and long-lasting. 100% coconut lathers really well with big, big bubbles that don't hang around long. 100% olive is slimy and slick; people who like it might say "silky" instead.

So the goal in a balanced bar is to get some of all those characteristics. A bar that isn't too hard to lather (coconut) but with bubbles that are also long-lasting (lard/tallow/palm) and silky (olive/safflower/avocado). Since the soap is a homogeneous mixture (at least at the macro level) the overall effect is more subtle than the simplification I just typed, and also includes things like how long the bar will last, how important it is to dry it between uses, how much glycerine there is, and other things.

The point is that what MOST people consider the best lather comes from something around 50% hard oil, 25% soft oil, 20% brittle oil and 5% castor. Including variations of about plus-or-minus 10% of the first three categories.

 

[SparksnFlash]

So I've lost some conditioning, but gained on everything else. Is there something I'm missing. Some reason experienced people wouldn't make a soap with just those three ingredients?

I just like to play a lot.

 

[DeeAnna]

Most excellent reply, Brewer George!

I've made an 80% lard, 15% coconut, 5% castor recipe before. It's fine, especially after a longer than usual cure time. But you're going to see better results by following BG's advice.

Don't place a lot of weight on the "conditioning" number because it's really not very helpful. And it should be called the "mildness" number, because soap can be mild ... but it doesn't actually condition the skin. You're better off to focus on the lauric + myristic (aka cleansing) percentage, the stearic + palmitic percentage (the longlived number in Soapee), and the oleic acid percentage. If you want to add a dab of castor to add some ricinoleic acid, then do it, but castor is given way too much weight in the Soapcalc numbers for creamy, bubbly, conditioning.

What's even more interesting to me is that other fatty acids that build mildness (stearic and palmitic) aren't included at all in the conditioning number, so this number doesn't really tell the full story about whether the soap is truly mild or not.

Recipes similar to the 80% lard recipe have very roughly 50% stearic + palmitic acids and very roughly 30% oleic acid. The high stearic and palmitic content makes a relatively insoluble bar that is likely to not lather very freely. You can offset the low lather somewhat by including additives, such as sugar or beer, or by using a bit of KOH with the NaOH to increase the solubility.

But why not start with a blend of fats that make a lathery pleasant soap on their own, and then tweak the performance with additives if you want? If you reverse those fatty acid numbers -- shoot for roughly 50% oleic and 30% palmitic + stearic -- then the soap will still be plenty hard but will lather better. And it will be plenty mild.

 

[SoapingChick]

I think I probably just have to make a bunch of soap and test it! Playing around with longer curing times would be good too. Hmmm...that will require orgnaisational skills....

Having to make a whole bunch of soap..? YES! Isn't it wonderful?! <3

I also think your first recipe will seem very different to you, if you can manage to save a bar for 6 months and try it again. The olive does get rock hard with time. The recipe looks great to me, although I no longer use a lot of OO - at the moment I'm one of the soapers having fun with just 3, maybe 4-oils/soap (none of them olive )

This hobby has brought soooo much more than 'just' soap into my world, one of them being upping my organizational skills big time - turns out I really, really like knowing exactly where to look for the stuff I need - whether it being a recipe or an ingredient. Still hoping that will 'pour over' into the rest of my housekeeping 'skills'

Also - everything DeeAnna said. Always
(Thank you DeeAnna!)

Happy soaping!!

 

[Nanditasr]

The point is that what MOST people consider the best lather comes from something around 50% hard oil, 25% soft oil, 20% brittle oil and 5% castor. Including variations of about plus-or-minus 10% of the first three categories.

Pardon my ignorance, but which oils are considered brittle? I know of cocoa butter -- which other? And isn't 20% of something like cocoa butter rather high?

 

[DeeAnna]

Coconut, babassu, palm kernel are the brittle fats. These fats add solubility, hardness, and bubbly lather.

Lard, palm, tallow, and the butters are the hard fats. They add longevity, hardness, and creamy lather.

These names are rather obscure, but that's my understanding of what they mean.

 

[earlene]

The common recommendation I see for cocoa butter in a soap recipe is not to go above 15% although some say up to 25%. The reasons given are that it contribute sto a soap that could crack when using higher amounts. Some say it makes the bar too hard, which I am not sure is actually true. I have made 100% cocoa butter soap and I don't consider it too hard. For me it's the expense of cocoa butter that makes using it at lower percentages more of a factor. Besides when I use it at or around 6-8% I am very satisfied with the soap.

I did recently make a soap with 30% cocoa butter as a trial, but haven't used it yet so I can't say if I like it better at the higher percentage.