the mystery of the instant cure

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JBot

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Last summer, while I was enthusiastically purchasing handcrafted soap but hadn’t yet considered making it myself, I had an interesting conversation with a local crafter. She sells at several of the farmers markets in the area and appears to have a sizeable business. She makes goat milk soap using fresh milk from her own goats, and I think it’s a full-time occupation for her and her family.

She was friendly enough, and it seems like she knows what she’s doing. (I was very amused when a customer asked her whether her soap is “pH balanced,” and I overheard her answer, “Yes, it’s balanced to a pH of 10!”) She said various other things that lead me to believe she has a solid grasp of soap-making chemistry.

Based on the appearance of the soap – texture, swirls, etc. – I’m pretty sure it’s cold process. But when I asked her how long she cured it, she said she uses a “proprietary process” that allows her soap to be ready for sale/use in as little as 24 hours. At the time I knew very little about soap-making, and had no idea how preposterous that sounded, so of course I was very impressed. She said it’s a technique she’s developed over time, but she obviously didn’t want to say more, and I didn’t press her. She told me a story about how a local specialty hotel that uses her soap had some sort of inventory emergency, and she was able to make and deliver the soap that very day. I’m familiar with the hotel, and the other details of her story were totally believable, so I’m not sure what to think.

I’ve been wondering about it every since. What could she possibly be doing?! The swirls are too wispy and the soap is too smooth for it to be HP, and besides, HP needs to cure just like CP. It’s not MP. I don’t think she was lying, and everything else she said to me that day has turned out to be true, but I just cannot see how it’s possible to instantly cure CP.

There aren’t very many things that only ONE person has thought of, and considering how many people have been making soap for how many years, I would think that if such a process existed, other people would have “discovered” it, too. (Has anybody here tried putting fresh CP in an industrial dehydrator?)

What do you all think? Does she have a magical trick, or is she blowing smoke?

She did say one thing that seemed odd in retrospect. I bought a bunch of her soap, and when I asked her about storing it, she said it would keep indefinitely, except that the scent might fade. To preserve the scent, she recommended storing them in plastic bags or saran wrap. Yikes! I cut up some of the bars stored them in various ways: unwrapped, paper-wrapped, cloth-wrapped, saran-wrapped, plastic-bagged, Glad Cling-Wrapped, wax paper-wrapped, parchment paper-wrapped, and Food Saver-sealed in airtight plastic. Eventually I’ll open them up to evaluate their condition and report back.

I ultimately wasn’t crazy about her soap when I used it. It didn’t have a great lather, it dried out my skin, it smelled “goat-y” to me, and her other ingredients struck me as very cheap. But that’s all personal preference. Objectively her soap seems just fine, and lots of people appear to like it.
 
I have used a professional dehydrator and it will dry the soap faster. However it doesn't cure it. It will make it hard as a rock quickly, but again it only takes away the water, it can not make the soap mild.

There is the chance that the woman simply did not know that curing is not just getting rid of water. I believe that is the case because a good soap when cured properly will not dry you out or smell like anything but fragrance and soap.

I've made bad soap that was borderline after a good cure. Decent soap is really really good after a cure.
 
I call blowing smoke. I think these two things from your experience with her soap are good indicators as to why: "It didn’t have a great lather, it dried out my skin". Those 2 things are very typical of uncured soap (and a few of the reasons why we are all so adamant about curing!). This is just a hunch on my part, but I think it's very possible (probably in order to get to market quicker?) that she's simply just zap-testing as soon as she unmolds and then calling them 'cured' if they don't zap?

I'll be interested to know the results of your 'storage' experiment!


IrishLass :)
 
If she forces gel, it should be zap free and "safe" after 24 hours but as you discovered, it won't be a good soap.
 
If she made the soap, gelled it, cooled it quickly, then cut it, it would be zap-free. If that is her definition of ready to use, she could manage a same day delivery. WHo knows? But it wouldn't be quality soap or her best quality soap, anyhow.
 
Is it possible she makes her own "M&P" bases, then finishes when she needs a batch? I might be way off base here but it seems plausible to have 50# of base laying around. If one did it that way, it would certainly not be in one's interest to advertise it as a M&P.
 
It's called the art of sales- one can make virtually anything sound good and legitimate with a few well placed and official sounding words (ie: proprietary process). It might all be true from a certain viewpoint....I'm with Susie on this- something is fishy here.

Best,
Anna Marie
 
I call blowing smoke. I think these two things from your experience with her soap are good indicators as to why: "It didn’t have a great lather, it dried out my skin". Those 2 things are very typical of uncured soap (and a few of the reasons why we are all so adamant about curing!). This is just a hunch on my part, but I think it's very possible (probably in order to get to market quicker?) that she's simply just zap-testing as soon as she unmolds and then calling them 'cured' if they don't zap?

I'll be interested to know the results of your 'storage' experiment!


IrishLass :)

I would agree that the poor lather and the dry skin were indicators of it being essentially uncured, except that it's exactly the same today as it was last summer. (Re-testing bars that were sitting unwrapped on a shelf all this time, so they had every opportunity to cure.) Still smells like goat-butt, too; if anything that's gotten worse over time.

Even weirder: I'm not sure her soap is gelled. But I'm not all that great at telling gelled and un-gelled bars apart. Is it even possible to make soap using fresh goat's milk and force gel without cracks and volcanoes? I don't work with milk soaps myself.

I don't know if the particular bars I purchased were made that recently, only that she claimed she COULD have them ready in 24 hours. Her soaps had an extremely uniform appearance and texture, too, even though the colors varied from one scent to the next.

I would love to try a professional dehydrator on my soaps. I bet that would ensure that the bars wouldn't shrink unevenly after I trim/plane them.
 
Sounds like she is all talk, lots of people care more about the sale, than the quality of their product. Last weekend I was talking to a soap maker at a craft fair, claimed to be soaping a couple of years, however she was selling cold process soap that she had made a few days before the fair. I opened my big mouth, and asked why she would do that, and she told me it was perfectly safe. When I told her the soap would improve with time and last longer she looked at me like I was crazy. She told me she has always done it that way, and I was probably very rude, but I said then you really shouldn't sell your soap.
 
It's called the art of sales- one can make virtually anything sound good and legitimate with a few well placed and official sounding words (ie: proprietary process). It might all be true from a certain viewpoint....I'm with Susie on this- something is fishy here.

Best,
Anna Marie

Yeah, I wasn't moved by her use of the term "proprietary process," since I'm well aware that it's just a fancy way of saying "sooper seekrit recipe." (I worked in the legal field way too long to be impressed by that kind of language.) What DID impress me was her "ability" to "cure" the soap in 24 hours. But obviously I'm skeptical about it now.

I, too, wondered if she used some kind of homemade MP that she prepared in large batches in advance. But I'm pretty sure that even homemade MP has to contain ingredients other than goat milk, soybean oil, and coconut oil. Unless she's lying on her label, but that's a whole other can of worms.
 
I would agree that the poor lather and the dry skin were indicators of it being essentially uncured, except that it's exactly the same today as it was last summer. (Re-testing bars that were sitting unwrapped on a shelf all this time, so they had every opportunity to cure.) Still smells like goat-butt, too; if anything that's gotten worse over time

Even weirder: I'm not sure her soap is gelled. But I'm not all that great at telling gelled and un-gelled bars apart. Is it even possible to make soap using fresh goat's milk and force gel without cracks and volcanoes? I don't work with milk soaps myself.

Very interesting. I'm now thinking the same thing Susie is thinking- i.e., looking around her trash for boxes of MP. All the MP I've ever used has never improved with time, and if fresh goat milk was added to it, it stinks, and the stink gets worse (I used to know a lady who made MP with fresh milk from her goats). Of all the CP batches I've made with fresh goat milk, I must say that none of them have ever smelled like goat butt. lol Granted, my 'fresh' goat milk was in a carton from the refrigerated section of my grocer instead of being fresh from the goat, but they've all smelled great.

JBot said:
Is it even possible to make soap using fresh goat's milk and force gel without cracks and volcanoes?

Yes- I do it all the time.

IrishLass :)
 
Sounds like she is all talk, lots of people care more about the sale, than the quality of their product. Last weekend I was talking to a soap maker at a craft fair, claimed to be soaping a couple of years, however she was selling cold process soap that she had made a few days before the fair. I opened my big mouth, and asked why she would do that, and she told me it was perfectly safe. When I told her the soap would improve with time and last longer she looked at me like I was crazy. She told me she has always done it that way, and I was probably very rude, but I said then you really shouldn't sell your soap.

HAHA! My two favorite pieces of baloney that I've heard from sellers at markets and craft fairs:

"Goat milk soap cures cancer because the pH of goat milk is exactly the same as the pH of your skin!" Never mind the fact that the pH of the finished soap is totally different, right? (This was not the same person who told me her soap could be ready in 24 hours.)

"My cold process is superfatted with unicorn oil." If you're experienced enough to sell, you should understand enough about the chemistry to know that unless it's a single-oil soap, you can't control which oil makes up the superfat in CP. You CAN'T. Full stop. So the seller was either A) lying, or B) ignorant about her own product. I'm not sure which one troubles me more.

I almost never call them out on it, since I worry that hostile confrontations with strangers could end badly, but this sort of thing is terribly frustrating. The spread of misinformation is damaging to us all.
 
Very interesting. I'm now thinking the same thing Susie is thinking- i.e., looking around her trash for boxes of MP. All the MP I've ever used has never improved with time, and if fresh goat milk was added to it, it stinks, and the stink gets worse (I used to know a lady who made MP with fresh milk from her goats).

IrishLass :)

Now you've got me thinking: if you're adding milk to MP, which is presumably fully saponified with no free lye remaining, then wouldn't the milk in the finished bar be essentially raw/uncooked/unsaponified? Wouldn't the milk spoil? What a revolting thought. . .
 
Yes that is what I wanted to say, is by selling fresh soap you are making all soap makers look bad. You know I was thinking about the possibility that it was m&p; you just have to go to Etsy to see soaps that look more like cp with tons of additives, herbs, clays etc. they are made to look like cp. So maybe that is her secret.
 
Yeah, I wasn't moved by her use of the term "proprietary process," since I'm well aware that it's just a fancy way of saying "sooper seekrit recipe." (I worked in the legal field way too long to be impressed by that kind of language.) What DID impress me was her "ability" to "cure" the soap in 24 hours. But obviously I'm skeptical about it now.

I, too, wondered if she used some kind of homemade MP that she prepared in large batches in advance. But I'm pretty sure that even homemade MP has to contain ingredients other than goat milk, soybean oil, and coconut oil. Unless she's lying on her label, but that's a whole other can of worms.

What I was trying to imply was that she might be escaping on technicalities when saying her soap is cured in a day (it all might be true from a certain viewpoint). Maybe in her mind the fact that her soap doesn't zap means it's cured. Who knows what her criteria for curing is? In any case, it sounds like bull, and you're right to be leery:) :)
 
Now you've got me thinking: if you're adding milk to MP, which is presumably fully saponified with no free lye remaining, then wouldn't the milk in the finished bar be essentially raw/uncooked/unsaponified? Wouldn't the milk spoil? What a revolting thought. . .

Just like the breast milk lady who's been in the news so much lately.
 
Maybe in her mind the fact that her soap doesn't zap means it's cured. Who knows what her criteria for curing is?

Absolutely. For similar reasons, I don't like the way some people use terms like "natural." It can be misleading, often deliberately so.

Just like the breast milk lady who's been in the news so much lately.

What?! Tell me more! I will google it, although I fear the garbage that may be in my search results. . .
 
Dunno Gals I made a HP soap and it was done it did not lather much but on a puff sponge it went wild. I have CPOP and then COOLED and my soaps are nice. I have also Just CP and let cook for 3 weeks and they where the nicest little bars. BUT nothing compares to a hard cured soap :) I know for sure. My family and friends have used my soaps Moringa soaps etc after 72 hours and none have complained of dry skin.

Maybe it MP soap?
 
What I was trying to imply was that she might be escaping on technicalities when saying her soap is cured in a day (it all might be true from a certain viewpoint). Maybe in her mind the fact that her soap doesn't zap means it's cured. Who knows what her criteria for curing is? In any case, it sounds like bull, and you're right to be leery:) :)


I think this is a good point. I might sell a 4 week old soap and consider it cured. Someone else my sell a 6 week old soap and consider that cured, but 4 weeks too early. She might well consider "a few moments" fully cured. Which is scary!
 
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