Hardness in use

Hi
(Excuse me about my bad language!) I make some soaps by CP. When I put them in bathroom or steamy or sultry weather , change to melt. I have low hardness in use time. Very soon a 200 gr cut of soap melted and solved in steam! or just use for two or three time in shower
How I can increase it in CP? I hadn't any success by Stearic Acid in CP.
I will be pleasure of your time and respond
My receipt:
Soybean 8%
Palm 40%
Coconut 30%
Canola 17%
Castor 5%
So I calculated it to:
Hardness 46
Cleansing 21
Bubbly 25
Creamy 30
Iodine 58
INS 155

I would have thought that should have been hard enough with that much palm and coconut. How long are you letting it cure before using? Is it allowed to dry in between uses? You could try adding salt or sodium lactate for extra hardness

That recipe looks like it shouldn't be too bad. How long are you curing the bars for?

Is it possible to keep your bars out of the bathroom? For example, I shave with a straight razor and they are better kept away from steam and dampness to help keep them in good condition - maybe your bars would benefit from a break from the bathroom when not in use?


ETA - hardness does not automatically mean long lasting. This is from this post by DeeAnna - http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=33563&highlight=important+numbers&page=2 so the examples will not apply directly here, but the theory will
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Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.
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So, lowering your cleansing (coconut) and upping your palm oil will result in a bar that last longer

Thank you !
I let it sleep for two week before use. I looking for a receipt by materials that I can buy in my area. Unfortunately I couldn't fine Sodium lactate in shops. I must have a receipt that work in my customer bathrooms! I will test Decreasing Coconut and increase Palm! Thank you for your helps!

It need to cure longer, 2 weeks isn't enough. Try 6 weeks and make sure the soap can dry completely between use, if it stays wet at all it will melt.
Try adding a little salt. for every pound of oil used in your recipe, add 2 tsp salt. Dissolve it in your water before adding the lye.

Mean of salt is NaCl ? or sea salt or something else? I have NaCl but never see sea salt!:grin:

NaCl is fine, its what I use.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing numberSo, lowering your cleansing (coconut) and upping your palm oil will result in a bar that last longer

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Craig, I think you are on the right track with our needing a more sophisticated way of calculating qualities, especially insofar as different fatty acids relate to each other. I'm not sure it's fair to weigh the cleansing oils so heavily against longevity though. I have that much in bars that are very long-lasting. You do need a good stearic/palmitic matrix. I'm more inclined to make subtractions for the slime and mush factors of the unsaturated fatty acids.

I personally would not reduce the coconut, but we can incorporate some of your considerations and mine to make this soap not only longer-lasting but milder.

Moonday said:

Hi
I have low hardness in use time. Very soon a 200 gr cut of soap melted and solved in steam! or just use for two or three time in shower
How I can increase it in CP?

Click to expand...

First of all, forget the soybean and canola oils. Those two together are adding soft soap to the mix. Also drop the castor, because it's making everything more soluble and you really don't need it in this recipe. We can start by considering olive oil as a replacement for those, which brings us to:

30% Coconut
40% Palm
30% Olive Oil

That's not bad. Good recipes can be very simple. I guarantee this would be a great improvement in the quality and longevity of the soap. By making a 30% coconut soap less soft and soluble, it will be milder.

If you don't need too much time for swirls and such things, I would go one step further in the spirit of Craig's comments and do this:

30% Coconut
30% Palm
30% Olive Oil
10% Cocoa Butter or Shea Butter

Attached is the profile of this suggested recipe.

Alas, I can't take credit for that, only for being a good student - that post came from DeeAnna

I can't buy Shea butter or cocoa Butter! What I can use instead them except tallow (I use just vegan Oils)? I have this list in my shops:
1 - Soybean
2 - corn
3 - olive
4 - Coconut
5 - Palm
6 - Castor
7 - Canola
8 - Stearic Acid
9 - Beeswax
I think I keep the Idea ! and start to test!
Thank you very much! I think if I need to learn it by books , I must spend 10 years!!!

Are you yourself a vegan? If not, I would look at using Tallow from that list.

I would consider lowering the CO still, to around 20% at most. Put the rest in to the palm/tallow or the olive oil.

If you are wanting a vegan bar, you need to drop the beeswax too. Good luck and happy soaping!

I'm not vegan! and never test beeswax! I just like make vegan because my customers like it!
in addition of my oil list : I can buy sunflower too!

Ah, I didn't realise that you're selling. To be honest, I would stop selling until I could work out the longer life issue, otherwise you're selling a product that you know you aren't happy with

I think most of your problem is the lack of cure time: at least 4 weeks, 6-8 can be better.
My bars with lots of palm or lard last the longest, tallow would be the same. Up to 2% beeswax can contribute to hardness and lasting ability as well.

If you dont already know this, you really should not be selling IMHO

I just sell to my family and give feedback of them (and material money of course )!

Moonday said:

I can't buy Shea butter or cocoa Butter! What I can use instead them except tallow (I use just vegan Oils)? I have this list in my shops:
1 - Soybean
2 - corn
3 - olive
4 - Coconut
5 - Palm
6 - Castor
7 - Canola
8 - Stearic Acid
9 - Beeswax
I think I keep the Idea ! and start to test!
Thank you very much! I think if I need to learn it by books , I must spend 10 years!!!

Click to expand...

I would echo the advice you received to cure the soap for a month or two.

There is no real veggie substitute for the tropical butters. I think the recipe would still be improved with just the 30/40/30 olive oil formula.

If you like to experiment, you can use the stearic acid to make a recipe adjustment similar to the butter. I would not normally do it because it makes trace much faster, but you could try with a small batch and see how it goes.

30% Coconut
33% Palm
33% Olive
4% Stearic

That would be the amount to make a significant difference, but it might also be enough to seize it. You can try and see, or play it safer and try 30/34/34/2.

If you are just mixing and pouring into the mold with nothing fancy, it might be okay if it goes fast. However, you MUST have enough time to get everything mixed together well, otherwise don't do it. Full water can help, but will increase your cure time.

The OP terrifies me! 2 weeks and selling?

Dahila said:

The OP terrifies me! 2 weeks and selling?

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Theres a person on one of the facebook sites I follow that sells her soaps at less than a week old. Pretty sure from what I have seen she is selling them about a day after unmoulding and cutting them.

Scary isnt it?

That's just insane. Then they will wonder why people don't come back for more. You just can't tell those folks anything as they wont listen. They only want people to hand them information without doing the footwork and research!