soap characteristics/qualities and superfatting

After using the search feature and reading through some good threads, I think I understand this, but I'm hoping to get confirmation/clarification:

If I'm using soapcalc to look at a recipe's properties (hardness, cleansing, etc.) based on the fatty acid composition of the oils (palmitic, lauric, etc.), then I should NOT include my post-cook (HP) oils/butters in the analysis. Because soapcalc's values are based on *saponified* fatty acids, and my post-cook oils will not be saponified. And the characteristics of an oil can be very different in its saponified vs. unsaponified form. Right?

That said, if you make two soaps using recipes that are identical except that one is made with and one is made without an additional post-cook oil, surely they must feel/perform differently. (This assumes I've adjusted my lye so that both soaps have the same final superfat %.)

So, if I can't use soapcalc to get a completely accurate reading on a recipe that includes a post-cook superfat oil, then how can I know what qualities the finished soap might have? Trial and error is one way, of course, but it's not very efficient.

My goal is to figure out what, if anything, is the difference between soaps that all have the same base recipe, but that use different post-cook superfatting oils. I typically use meadowfoam oil, sweet almond oil, or avocado oil to superfat. Sometimes jojoba. Subjectively, it seems that the soaps made with meadowfoam oil are quite a bit nicer in the end, but if I'm only imagining that there are differences, well, that's an expensive imagination.

You soap will have the qualities of the saponified oils with the addition of the qualities of the oils you use to superfat.

So if you made a soap that was lard, coconut castor at 80,20,and5 percent respectfully. Then added meadowfoam oil as superfat, you could expect a moisturizing bar that would leave your skin feeling fresh, but not oily nor dry. The fresh moisturizing from the meadowfoam oil and the extra moisturizing from the lard as well as a nice stable creamy lather, but lather not just foam.

In practice this may vary greatly due to many factors. First was saponification truly done when you superfatted? What quality was your superfat oil? How much did you add and was that percentage enough to make a difference?

So yes you can figure what you should get, however sometimes the circumstances are such that what you get isn't as good as what you think it should be.

YMMV

This makes me want to HP, even if it is lumpy.

Well...as a person who routinely gets lost down the soap-bricked soapcalc road....I can say that you can sit in front of soapcalc until the goats come home. You can swap and play with those numbers to the point of obsessive exhaustion and really get nothing out of it but a pile of print outs and more thoughts on tests to try....

Or...you can just test small batches and go for it.

You will truly never know what each oil added after a cook in hot process brings to the soap party until you make it, cure it and then take it to the water and lather up. Everyone has different techniques, temperatures, humidity, storage, air pressure, star alignments, moon cycles and formulas in the end. After that, we also have different water and skin types to shake it up a bit more. What makes one soaper cry "eureka" in the shower makes another soaper scream in pain as their skin in stripped away...or grossed out by the greasy feeling left behind...

Although you don't think it is efficient, I do disagree with you. Instead of reading, taking notes and pondering over what a superfat oil brings to the quality of the soap you can be using soaps side by side and determining the answer for yourself...with just a little test or a large test you can find out.

I happen to have done tests just like these. I like to shake up a recipe and just see the results for myself. In the link below I wrote about just this test that I did, I took a large hot process base recipe and divided it up and added the same amount of different oils...let them set up, cured them the same time, same conditions and set out testing them...me, my family and a few others. I was surprised at the differences in the soap. In the end, you don't know until you make it and find out for yourself. THAT is the fun part in my mind about soap making, the infinite number of possibilities that are there just waiting to be tested.
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52448

Chefmom, thanks! That's a great thread. It seems obvious to me NOW, but I'd actually never thought to do it like that; I was picturing using different superfatting oils in consecutive batches, which could take a long time.

In addition to my own subjective evaluation of superfatting oils in soap, I was hoping to find some objective and measurable analysis for unsaponified oils, the way soapcalc gives you properties of saponified oils based on their fatty acid composition. Then maybe I could combine the information so that I could predict, say, how much the base recipe would be softened by avocado oil as opposed to sweet almond oil.

I haven't come across a resource that tells me how the different types of fatty acids behave when they have NOT been turned into soap, so I'll have to go looking for that.

Not_ ally: my HP isn't lumpy at all! I'll try to post some pictures later. . .

Would love to see your pics, JBOT!

JBot said:

Chefmom, thanks! That's a great thread. It seems obvious to me NOW, but I'd actually never thought to do it like that; I was picturing using different superfatting oils in consecutive batches, which could take a long time.

In addition to my own subjective evaluation of superfatting oils in soap, I was hoping to find some objective and measurable analysis for unsaponified oils, the way soapcalc gives you properties of saponified oils based on their fatty acid composition. Then maybe I could combine the information so that I could predict, say, how much the base recipe would be softened by avocado oil as opposed to sweet almond oil.

I haven't come across a resource that tells me how the different types of fatty acids behave when they have NOT been turned into soap, so I'll have to go looking for that.

Not_ ally: my HP isn't lumpy at all! I'll try to post some pictures later. . .

Click to expand...

JBot...in a way this information is out there....maybe not in as scientific and measurable way. But if you go onto say Bulk Apothocary's website and start reading about the individual properties of different kinds of oils and what they do in lotion, body butter and soap etc you can get an idea of what each oil has to offer skin. Take some notes to highlight what you are looking for in an oil.

I make infused herbal oils for hand salve and so I like to make a mix in my hand salve. Different oils infused with different herbs so that the whole thing isn't just made from olive oil. My experiments with different oils in lip balms showed me how BIG of a difference can be made with tiny changes of different oils.

One oil may soak into your skin quickly, and not leave a greasy feeling behind, and another oil may stay on the surface.....providing slip if you want to use it as a massage oil....but it leaves you greasy for a long time as a lotion oil. It's these simple differences that add to a lotion, balm, butter or soap in the end.

Read about the many many oils out there and get a sense of them...once you understand the whole property of each ingredient you can...with more confidence formulate recipes to achieve what your end goal is in your product.

Good Luck to you!! I love the experimenting part...I'm a Mad Scientist at heart.http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

You also need to keep in mind that since soap is a wash off product, the amount of any SF left behind is negligible. I like using shea or avocado for SF in HP but I wouldn't waste more exotic or expensive oils, they are better off in a lotion or body butter.

Here are some pictures of my latest HP soaps! Most of them still have the rough edges from my wire cutter, and you can see that some of them are suffering from the post-planing warping problem I've been dealing with. (I think that's nearly sorted out!) They'll look better after I bevel the edges, but they haven't cured long enough for that yet.

But they aren't lumpy!

How's my red? I've been working on it so much that I've lost perspective and everything looks pink to me now.

ETA: the red/black/white one is my first soap made with my brand-spankin' new SoapHutch mold! That mold is its own whole post, soon to come. Suffice to say that I LOVE IT and it's worth three times what Rich charges for them. That soap has not been planed, trimmed, or anything except sliced into bars. It's beautiful and perfect and has straight, smooth sides, all WITHOUT any planing/trimming/song-and-dancing. So I guess it's not quite right to say that I've sorted the planing-warping problem; more like my new mold will allow me to avoid doing it in the first place. HAPPY DANCE!!!