Infused Oils

I have prepared and I will in the future make some more infusion oils using various dried herbs...

What % of an infused oil is normally used in addition to the other oils, for a given soap recipe to contain in it?

Thank you

Nehlena said:

I have prepared and I will in the future make some more infusion oils using various dried herbs...

What % of an infused oil is normally used in addition to the other oils, for a given soap recipe to contain in it?

Thank you

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this question i would say falls in the "trick question" category , because the answer would be based on how strong your infusion is , and still on how large of a batch of soap you are making. for me i add anywhere from 1oz to 2oz ppo [ depending on the base of your infusion / say olive oil / then you could substitute 2oz from the overall olive oil weight with your infusion ] , maybe more depending on what you are trying to achieve. and still the kicker is ; some is of the school of thought that lye kills the properties of the botanical

Lion Of Judah said:

and still the kicker is ; some is of the school of thought that lye kills the properties of the botanical

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can you please elaborate on this... you mean that lye reacts with the herbal molecules that have been leached onto the carrier oil and neutralize in some manner the beneficiary properties of them?
so, in a sense it is of no use in using infused oils? or I have gone too far...?

Thank you

Some would argue that it is worthwhile. Others would argue the contrary.

But as Han Solo said "I've been from one end of this galaxy to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe that herb infusion benefits survive saponification." I agree with him to be honest.

That said, using an infused oil as the superfat in hot process would be a different matter

Yes, maybe you are trying to take it to far. If you want to make soap simply make soap and stop worrying about what all the molecules do. Not much is going to survive the extreme caustic nature of the lye plus the resulting heat. Lets face it, most additives become simply label appeal. Maybe some of the additives survive but I am not sure anyone knows for sure. Soap is Soap and it washes away dirt and germs. I do however, think we can get some benefits from essential oils in our soap, such as tea tree, Lavender, peppermint, in our soaps. We know peppermint survives it tingles. But essentials are a complete different animal compared to infusions. You could make some nice solid lotions with your infusions. Just make sure they are well strained if using in lotions or balms. I do agree with EG that using it at the end of hp would make a difference. I was only speaking of cp

I am a very searchy mind, dont give up easily, I found this regarding infused oils...

http://personalcaretruth.com/2011/09/ask-the-experts-saponification/

ok, not all gone with cp method...

BUT I found also this, and might be a good reference for those that do not know it, with a good listing of high/low volatile EO's at the end of the article...

http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/

Here is a quote from the first link:

"Now none of this has been really studied or proven that I know of. I’m just making guesstimations based on what I know about chemical stability. If anyone else has ideas, I’d like to hear them." Cindy Jones, Ph.D

The interview with Kevin Dunn is about Essential Oils. That is not at all the same thing as infused oils.

Here is the issue with whether there is any benefit left after saponification: There is no conclusive proof that any benefit is derived from the product you are making the infusion with in the first place. THEN you add high temperatures during saponification as well as high pH, and the likelihood of any benefit surviving that process drops somewhere between slim and none.

If you want to make soap with herb infused oils for label appeal, or for whatever benefit you think it gives, go right ahead. But DO NOT advertise or label the soap with any claims that the soap does anything except clean.

I mainly use infusions for the colour effects they have, but I don't personally feel they add anything to the soap other than that. After all soap is designed to wash the dirt off you down the drain and not stay on your skin, so even if the infused oils weren't affected by saponification, they aren't going to hang around on your skin long enough to have any effect anyway.

Susie, you are a bit harsh on me...

I dont want to make soap to sell... I am looking to find different ideas to enhance the soaps that I make at home... for us. Infused oils have many good properties, and as the site states after the process, the batch retains most of the flavonoids... and who knows what else!

And still she quotes "Now none of this has been really studied or proven that I know of." this means in my opinion, that further study needs to be done... (good PhD thesis), there are "zillions" of different molecules in a herbal oil infusion and if no scientific data has yet cocluded that actually the cp saponification process destroys all of them, I do not see that such a soap is a waste of time... with proper selecting oils that stay after the water applied on the skin after showering,, maybe a small trace from such molecules can remain on the skin... is this no good?

Otherwise, what is the purpose of making questions and one aid the other with what we find and from reliable sources on the net... else the soap process would be as the old times, lye, tallow and hand stir...

I know that the second site regards EO's and not infused oils... I think it is a great article and people using EO's might want to read...

I don't think she is trying to be harsh, but she is trying to educate you a bit. I use herbs and tinctures for many things myself. They are wonderful. Willow bark can get rid of my headache as easily as Motrin - But, herbs are delicate. When drying an herb for any benefit it is important to dry them at under 90 degrees.

Now look at lye. Even if you soaped cold the saponification process generates enough heat to turn soap to gel. Lye is extremely caustic. It will dissolve silk. It can disintegrate aluminum.

Bottom line- any volatile oils in plant matter which is the beneficial part, the medicinal part, is not going to survive. This is only logical. I can't fight against wishful thinking but if you look at it objectively you'll realize there really is no way it could survive.

Watch these: http://video.search.yahoo.com/video...io5i2&age=1310126065&fr2=p:s,v:v&fr=ipad&tt=b

This second video show how strong it can be when it is heated much higher than we use it- but still.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video...r2ujg&age=1251392996&fr2=p:s,v:v&fr=ipad&tt=b

The second idea that mitigates the use of infused oils is that soap is a wash off product. So lets say you make an amazing chamomile infusion, and its in olive oil and 30% of your soap recipe is olive oil, so you use all of your infusion in making your soap. Since oils make up about 60% of your soap batter, your infused olive oil is about 18% of the soap.

Since we don't know how much of the infused goodness survives the saponification process, but we do know that the scent gets annihilated, lets just make a generous wild guess that the amount of goodness that survives is 10%. So 18% X 10% = 1.8% of the soap has any benefit of the infusion.

Then when you use the soap lets say that for a new 4 oz soap, 1.8% of it stays on your body lets generously say 2 minutes before its washed off? How much good can it do?

Now, like everyone says - this is for cold process only. If you add the infusion for HP then it doesn't get eaten by the lye monster - though there is a lot of heat. Then the infusion will survive. But it will still be in low concentration (superfats arent usually more than 10%), in a wash off product.

There is still label appeal though

And Susie wasn't being mean. Unless you are selling soap as a cosmetic (which requires crazy permits and licensing), you can't claim that your soap does anything but clean.

That being said, try it out - but keep the infusion as the one and only change in the whole recipe. Otherwise it is pointless

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

That said, using an infused oil as the superfat in hot process would be a different matter

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i agree 100% with TEG that HP would be a better medium / process to try make a beneficial soap containing your infused oil properties . I would still venture to say that one should remember that soap is a "wash off" product and that a lotion - cream - or balm is a better suited vehicle to carry your beneficial properties of your infused oil.

I really am not trying to be mean. I don't have any idea if you intend to sell or not. However, if you claim soap does anything but clean, you are asking for problems in the US. This is nothing personal, we tend to confront people who have such claims on their websites, as they give all soapers a bad reputation by breaking the laws. Those people will be why soapmakers in the US eventually have to go through more government controls than they do now. It will affect all of us eventually. I am trying to save you from having their reputation.

I did say you could use them for label appeal or for whatever benefit you think you can derive from them. I was simply pointing out that your "source" did not prove anything. She said she had no proof. She is guessing.

Yeah you ladies are right, but I use infused oils hoping something survives. I make different infusion which I use in lotions, balms, and salves. The rest goes to soap. When we make herbal tea we use 176 F or for metric and celsius people is 80 C. I am not gelling the soaps, I like the pastel look of ungelled soaps. I soap at 35 C and I do not think my soap goes up to 80 . I may be wrong of course.
I want to believe that some of goodies survive :grin:

Seawolfe said:

Unless you are selling soap as a cosmetic (which requires crazy permits and licensing), you can't claim that your soap does anything but clean.

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I sell soap as cosmetic, there are no crazy permits or licensing involved beyond the normal. There are some specific rules you need to follow, and you must label correctly but I think you are confusing cosmetic rules with drug rules. ( although there are ways to make that much simpler too, you would need testing and registration for "new" drugs. )

Of course this is in the US, I am aware that in the UK and Canada there are stricter regulations.

Edited to ask, why people think it is so much harder to sell as a cosmetic than as soap? Most of you already try to label correctly, and that is half the hassle.

hp vs cp why from images give a not so well look on the soaps?
only a crockpot you can use or it is done on a regular pot too? I would like to give a try.. but, why most prefer the cp process?

Also, th hp process produces a ready to use soap? this means that even the 100%OO soap is ready after the hp process is done and there is no need for eg. 6 mos curing?

Hp still needs a cure - in fact, it needs more of a cure as you use more water. The cure for a Castile is special and would still be at the 12 months range

Slow cooker is better, but you can use stainless steel pot in the oven - direct heat on the cooker doesn't seem to be too popular.

Most people like swirls and so on which are easier to do with CP than HP. The look isn't bad at all with HP if you know what you are doing and don't overcook the batter. At least it will look good enough for you to use!

why dont I see a hp process forum?

Because there isn't one!

The difference between CP and HP are pretty much just cooking the batter. The recipes are pretty much the same