Soap Recipes or Oils yielding a natural pH that's under 10 ??

Which oils saponify to a salt that has a natural pH that is under 10 (say around 9.7) ?
- OR -
Is there a soap recipe whose soap has a natural pH that is under 10 (say around 9.7) ?

I know that one can add a mild acid to the finished soap to lower the pH. But I was wondering if a combination of certain oils and fats will accomplish this without having to add a mild acid afterwards.

Why I am hung up on the pH:
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I regularly do the zap test. I'm okay with the zap test. I just feel more comfortable if the pH of my soap were between 7 and 10 (which is the okay range for our soaps). One of my soaps wasn't. The soap passed the zap test, but the pH was over 11! People have said that if the pH is too high, it can have adverse affects on the skin over time. Experienced experts debate this skin issue, I don't know who's right, so I want to play it safe. I also don't want to rehash the skin debate; I'm sure people are tired of it. Since, people have talked about how the natural / intrinsic pH of the fully saponified soap (w no excess lye) varies depending on the recipe, I thought I'd ask the above question.

Soap's pH lowers for awhile after it's made. Increasing the superfat would probably help.

interesting question , and you are correct in that it has been hashed over by many of soap makers.
now the only soap that i know of that comes close to a 7ph factor/rating is Dove, a commercial soap [. Dove reaches a neutral PH by "re-batching" their soap. They leach all of the natural glycerin out of their bars with their continues processing method of making the soap. Then they sell the glycerin (a natural humectant produced when making real soap - it naturally moisturizes your skin) to other manufactures who then sell you moisturizing lotion because your skin dries out from the Dove bar. The film left behind on your skin clogs your pores, causing your skin to secret oil that ultimately dries out your skin.{http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_pH_of_soap } ] that being said , looking at normal ph values for other soap may start at 8.5-10.5 range [ Cold process soap is naturally alkaline. It is normal for soap to have a pH between 8 and 10.5. Industrial made soap has an average pH of 10.5, while the pH of quality handmade soap can be as low as 8.5. Any so called soap products that with a pH lower than 8 are in fact “synthetic detergents” and only soaps with a pH of 10 or higher are drying to the skin. {http://www.soap-body-and-spa.com/Cold-Process-Soap-Troubleshooting.html } ] with some a touch above that. does that mean they are not good soap? not at all. now yes we all shot for a safe ph in our soap and try to achieve it tugging here and there but in cold process ,curing and being sure you are not lye heavy coupled with the right amount of SF% is what creates a mild bar. castile soap ph is around 8.5 and castile (100% OO) being one of the mildest soaps out there.
i hope you get the jest of it all .

Increasing the superfat (or lye discount) too much can make the soap too oily. I used 6%.

Lion Of Judah said:

now yes we all shot for a safe ph in our soap and try to achieve it tugging here and there but in cold process ,curing and being sure you are not lye heavy coupled with the right amount of SF% is what creates a mild bar. castile soap ph is around 8.5 and castile (100% OO) being one of the mildest soaps out there..

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Castile soap has a pH of 8.5 ?? I did a soap that had only one oil in it: pomace olive oil. When I tested the pH of this soap with red cabbage (click HERE for description of this test), the color was blue-green which meant a pH of 10 (after curing 4 weeks). I did HP, and used a 6% lye discount. Is this a good % ? What is the right amount of SF ?

AustinStraight said:

Soap's pH lowers for awhile after it's made. Increasing the superfat would probably help.

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How much (roughly) did your pH go down by after you cured your soap, Austin ?

I did HP and used a lye discount of 6%. Is that a good value ?

Sure your scales aren't faulty? And, I've actually never pH tested my soap... but I've seen it done in soapmaking videos and they report that the pH is lower after a few days of it curing. Kind of generalized, I know 6% is a pretty average superfat. Most soapers use a superfat around 5-7%, some even go as high as 10, I think someone around here does a 1% superfat.

With this situation, would you be looking at a soap based on pH rather than based on the oils used to make it? I can picture many variations where I would rather have a soap with a higher pH but a better mix of oils myself.

That said - the chemical equation shouldn't be too hard to work out, but getting all of the figures might well be rather hard indeed. But in theory it would be possible to work out. Good luck

AustinStraight said:

Sure your scales aren't faulty? And, I've actually never pH tested my soap... but I've seen it done in soapmaking videos and they report that the pH is lower after a few days of it curing. Kind of generalized, I know 6% is a pretty average superfat. Most soapers use a superfat around 5-7%, some even go as high as 10, I think someone around here does a 1% superfat.

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Yep that would be me. I usually superfat 1-3% depending on how much cleansing oil I use. I simply do not like oily soap. My one highly superfatted soap are my salt bars

AustinStraight said:

Sure your scales aren't faulty?

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I tested my scale with known weights. The scale reported the correct weight, so it seems okay.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

With this situation, would you be looking at a soap based on pH rather than based on the oils used to make it? I can picture many variations where I would rather have a soap with a higher pH but a better mix of oils myself.

That said - the chemical equation shouldn't be too hard to work out, but getting all of the figures might well be rather hard indeed. But in theory it would be possible to work out. Good luck

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I guess it will have to be a compromise between pH and my favorite oils. Regarding chemical equations and figures, I don't know how to calculate it.

What I was hoping for was a table somewhere that listed the common saponified salts along with their natural intrinsic pHs.

From what I saw during a wee google search, there is variation between brand A and brand B oil, which suggests some variation in the end results, too.

I'm going to ask this question again - why is pH so important to you? If you would compromise a good soap recipe just for a pH, there should be a jolly good reason for it but I can't think of what it would be.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

I'm going to ask this question again - why is pH so important to you? If you would compromise a good soap recipe just for a pH, there should be a jolly good reason for it but I can't think of what it would be.

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Well,one of my soaps passes the zap test but the pH (from using red cabbage as an indicator) is just over 11. The accepted safe range of most soaps is 7-10. 11 might still be safe, and it might not - depends on the oils and recipe. I wouldn't have known about the 11 without the pH test.

The jury is still out on the debate on wheter high pHs have a detrimental effect on the skin over time. I don't want to rehash the debate, but when I see some experts say yes and other experts say no, I say "I better play it safe". I am new to soapmaking and I don't know who is right.

If the natural intrinsic pH depends on the oils used, I thought it would be reasonable to ask which oils yield lower pH salts and then gravitate to those and experiment with them.

If you're referring to the other thread on that, then you'll also remember the post with all of the soaps that can be bought and are generally considered "safe" and how they were above 10 on the pH scale.

Something I read on the subject piqued my interest. If you take some of what I will call "Solution A", rub it on the skin and leave it, Solution A will cause your skin to itch and it's pH is different from that of skin. Should we not use Solution A? It irritates the skin and has a different pH!

Solution A is commonly known as Lemon Juice!

If we are talking about the acid mantle and how a higher pH product could wash that away, we have to remember that a low pH product can do the same! The protective acid mantle is made up of oils from our skin. Just because a product has a lower pH rather than a higher one, does that automatically mean that it won't be causing damage to the acid mantle?

My take on it is that people have used the sorts of soaps that we make and used them for generations. Ask someone the question - would they rather use a pH 5.5 product full of strange chemicals whose use over time might have ill effects, or a more natural product with a pH of 12 which has been used for ages with no recorded ill effects?

ETA - Can you explain where the "accepted safe range" of 7-10 comes from?

I'm going to come right out and say it, you are way over thinking the PH thing. People have been using home made soap for decades with no PH tests and no health issues. If it doesn't zap then the soap won't cause a chemical burn from too much lye, thats way more important then worrying about PH.
I'd also not trust the red cabbage test. There is no way its accurate enough, each head of cabbage will have different levels of whatever changes colors with the PH level.
Put down the PH testing stuff and enjoy making your soap

Thread is closed.