Oh just gel already!

Made some coffee soaps and oddly enough, they tried to gel. I say odd because I poured them into my cavity molds and I didn't think they would gel in those, particularly with no insulation.

Anyhoo .. they partially gelled and after looking at them for about a week I decided I couldn't stand them 1/2 done like that, so stuck them back in the mold and into the oven at 170F for a few hours, then turned the oven off and let them cool. Nadda, bupkas .. nil, naught .. nothing. They didn't change.

I accidentally forgot them in the oven and when I went to cook supper they were preheated up to 350f before I caught them and pulled them out. Still nothing different.

So I stuck them back in again today and left them on 170f for about 4 hours, then turned off and let cool.

Still nothing. Cripes .. I just want them to finish gelling already. Any suggestions?

They can't gel, because they are done saponifying. But they should be baked by now, lol! I bet your house smelled good every time you turned up the oven, huh! And maybe for a few more days to come, too!

Here is my understanding, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong. Gelling is just the saponification reaction ramped up. The reaction is occuring so fast that excess heat is being produced, which in turn alters how the soap/colorants/additives look and behave. Saponification happens at cool temps too, just not so quickly and with less heat to alter the look and behavior so much. Even at low temps, the reaction starts right away and will mostly be complete within the first few days. As with any chemical reaction, there will always be some amount of unreacted materials, but this gets smaller and smaller with time, and at some point is too little to create the heat needed to produce the gelled look.

Hmmm .. what you're saying makes sense but my brain just asked, "Then how does crock potting take it back to a gel stage when you're rebatching?"

CaraBou -- When soap happens to get hot enough, it will turn from a solid form into a gelatinous or salve-like consistency. This gel phase often happens during saponification when the soap gets hot through the saponification reaction, but saponification is not needed. Soap will transition into a gel state any time it is heated to a high enough temperature. This happened when Molly put her soap in the oven and happens whenever a soap maker uses a crock pot to cook an HP or rebatch soap to the "vaseline" stage.

Molly -- what you're seeing might not be a soap that is just partly gelled. From your pics, I wonder if some of the coffee solids partially separated from your soap batter. Or something. ???

I've always thought of "gelling" as oils and lye (not yet soap) undergoing a highly exothermic reaction (intense saponification) that results in the creation of soap. And rebatching as basically the melting and re-solidifying of soap that has already been saponified. They certainly look similar in the process but I never thought of them as both being in gel stage.

So in both cases, is it actually fully formed soap molecules that are going through gel, broken down (or not fully formed) molecules going through gel, or am I completely off track here?

"... So in both cases, is it actually fully formed soap molecules that are going through gel, broken down (or not fully formed) molecules going through gel, or am I completely off track here? ..."

It's the soap itself that goes into a gel phase, although when you're talking about saponifying soap batter, that can be a hard thing for the soap maker to really see.

Speaking very roughly, most soap will go into a gel phase around 140-180 deg F (60-80 C). If you are making an HP soap, freshly saponifying batter can be that hot due to the heat added from the crock pot or whatever, but the soap batter at that temp will still look like ... batter. There's not enough soap to form a gel.

Only after the batter saponifies enough to be mostly soap, will you actually see it go into gel, if it's going to gel at all. The process takes time to completely change from "mashed potatoes" (a mixture of solid and gelled soap) to a "vaseline" (full gel) stage.

What many people don't realize is that some soap will never gel at all or will remain in a partly gelled and partly solid state at the temperatures we would normally heat soap to. If you make soap with a more concentrated lye solution (40% to 50% NaOH solution), your soap may never gel due to the low water content. And obviously temperature has a role to play -- if the batter remains cool, it is less likely to gel as well.

So then, it is possible to re-gel in the oven a fully formed, intact bar that previously was only partially gelled? And force the whole bar to gel so that it has a homogeneous look throughout? I've only read accounts of people shredding & rebatching to deal with partially gelled soaps, or simply living with them as they are. This approach would be much easier than rebatching, but is there a trick to making it work well (other than fresh soap, I suppose)? I kind of think I tried it once (unsuccessfully), but I can't find notes to support that so maybe not. I do remember my house smelling like soap (hence the comment to MzMolly), thought that could have been from one of my few uses of CPOP.

I wouldn't mind experimenting with this. Would a reasonable approach be to "OP" a few bars of a young soap (a week old?) that never went through gel, and then compare the color/look with the bars from the same batch that I didn't put in the oven? What temp & time would you recommend?

Thanks for your help DeeAnna. And MzMolly, my sincere apology for the misinformation!

A little more searching and I found a tread from about 6 months ago where this idea was discussed but not really fully carried out. Hazel actually did OP fully formed individual bars and thought they turned out darker, but she was going to compare side-by-side which I didn't see reported. Hazel, if you're watching, how did they compare, and do you have pics or other info?

I hate the idea of purposefully making a partially gelled soap, but now I'm tempted to try it! Did anyone else who was stimulated by that thread ever do any experimenting? Here it is:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=39457&page=3

Oops! I'm sorry! I completely forgot about that topic and putting the soap into the oven. I had to think for awhile about what batch I had used. Finally remembered it was the Pumpkin Lager. I did have some issues with the look when I took the soap out of the cavities. Three of the soaps had small holes in which what resembled thick jelly had settled. I thought it was probably a combination of FO and oil which slightly separated. I don't know if this was caused by the heat of the oven or the combined additives of pumpkin and fragrance oil. Eventually, these jelly-like areas reabsorbed into the soap but left slight indentations. The soaps also eventually lightened in color and were the same color as the bars I didn't put in the oven. Bars from each batch are as hard as each other. I can't see or feel a difference and both soaps' lather is the same.

I'm sorry I forgot about it because it would have been more useful to have compared them at 4 weeks then 6 months later. I can say two people took bars of the Pumpkin Lager at Thanksgiving (which was 4 weeks later) and told me they loved the soap. My sister even asked for another bar so heating them in the oven couldn't have been too detrimental.

I don't remember the exact temperature and time I used but temp might have been around 160F - maybe slightly higher. I also probably would have turned the oven off after an hour since that is normally what I do when I CPOP and left them in the oven for awhile. When I took them out of the oven, the tops looked firm but underneath they were a thick liquid. I found this out because when I went to set them on the counter, I tilted the mold and soap flowed out of the cavities. Not a lot because as soon as I saw soap starting to flow across the mold, I leveled the mold and then set it down. 'Flow' isn't really a good word. The soap was slowly coming out of the cavities. The consistency was kind of like warmed molasses.

I don't have a current picture but scroll down and look at the skull on the right side of the pic. This is the color of the PL. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=39473

However, I don't know if any of this is helpful. It would have been more accurate if I had used a batch which I knew positively had only partially gelled.

Thanks Hazel! So if I followed this right: the soap originally gelled, and then you oven gelled again. The regelled soap darkened relative to the original soap for awhile, but at some point returned to the same color. I guess you might expect that. And it did a weird separation thing that reabsorbed on its own.

I found one bar showing a partial gel that I made about 6 months ago, but I bet it has lost too much water to be of help ferreting this out. But I did just make a GMH soap last week that I put straight into the freezer and didn't gel. I could try putting a couple of those bars into the oven and see what happens. Having the GM and honey in there might complicate results a bit though; I'd rather have a basic batch of soap. But I'm gonna try it anyway -- my curiosity is getting me!

You're welcome and you got it right.

I'd be concerned the combination of goat milk and honey would scorch from the heat. I can put a sample piece from a buttermilk soap I did a couple weeks ago into the oven in a little bit. Right now, the oven is occupied with some chicken pot pies. Then after that, I was going to bake a cherry pie for tomorrow. But after it comes out, the oven will be available. :grin:

Well .. since I'm not terribly fond of the coffee soap I may just stick it back in the oven AGAIN!! (or at least a few of the bars anyway)

When I accidentally had it at 350f that was just the length of time it takes to preheat the oven .. not long. When I left it in for a longer period of time I only had the temp at 170f. I'm starting to think I need to have high heat for a longer period to push it back into a gel state.

It's worth experimenting.

"...So then, it is possible to re-gel in the oven a fully formed, intact bar that previously was only partially gelled? And force the whole bar to gel so that it has a homogeneous look throughout?..."

I haven't tried the "OP" for a partially gelled soap, but it's on my list to do if I end up with a partially gelled soap. So, not having any personal experience with this, I can only say that theoretically you should be able to heat soap until it goes back into gel. I'd say your chances of success are best with a freshly made soap, not a cured soap, since a young soap will have the highest water content for the best chance of gelling. If the soap does go into gel, it may get soft enough that a cut bar might slump a bit and not keep a tidy shape. I'm guessing it would be better to "OP" the soap as a loaf if you can.

DeeAnna said:

I'm guessing it would be better to "OP" the soap as a loaf if you can.

Click to expand...

Mine are cavity rounds and I'm going to play with this on Monday. I'll report back.

Any suggestions for a time and temperature or am I flying by the seat of my pants on this one?

I did a test last night with a piece of soap from an ungelled buttermilk batch. I left it in the oven for a couple of hours. I put it in at 200F but after about half an hour lowered the temp so it would cool down. I'd say it was at 200F for close to an hour and then approximately 180F for the remainder of the time. When I took it out, the soap did have the glossy, translucent appearance I associate with a gelled batch. It's hard to tell from the picture but the sample piece is less creamy looking, is glossier and has finer texture compared to the ungelled bar. Also, it looks like the colorant faded a little bit. The scent also doesn't seem as strong as the ungelled bar. They both felt equally as hard when I tried to squeeze them and the lather seemed the same. This is just what I experienced. Someone else's result might be different depending on ingredients, age of soap, recipe, liquid type, different temp and time left in the oven. BTW, I was wrong when I said the soap was a couple of weeks old. It's actually been almost 4 weeks since I made it. Boy, time flies when you're having fun. :roll:

I guess I should have cleaned up the bar, too. It didn't look that rough when I chose it for comparison.

Thanks Hazel! That does look like it gelled. And so do my gmh bars. They were individual cavity so easy to experiment with. I put them in a 170 oven for 2 hours with the heat (and a careful eye) on the whole time. I don't think they ever got so soft that they'd have slumped, but I was definitely concerned about that (and would still be for future batches too). They gelled evenly, and look like I'd expect them to - except they have little bumps over their surface. Could be ash or maybe it was just too much heat for the goodies in a gmh, I don't know.

Anyway, here a few pics. Sorry for the blur, my smartphone just won't focus on close objects. The light soap (on the left in 1st pic) was never gelled to begin with, and the darker soap (right) is the post-saponified OP'd test bar (hey - PSOP! a new term!). They are both from the same batch made exactly one week before popping a subset into the oven.

Next time someone posts fresh partial-gel pics, let's see if they'd be willing to PSOP a couple. Inquiring minds want to know!

Should have said too that the fragrance seems the same - it was Crafters Choice almond honey FO . And I've not used either soap.

Your soap looks great! I love the honeycomb. Do you mind me asking where you got the mold? It's just my opinion but I think the extra sugary goodies contributed to the darker color and bumps.

I'm thinking of putting a few bars of the ungelled buttermilk into the oven to see if the finer texture was a fluke. I prefer the look of the PSOP (great acronym! ) soap. I've always prevented most of the milk soaps I make from gelling to keep the lighter cream color. The only ones I didn't worry about were ones in which I used discoloring FOs. However, I prefer the slightly finer and glossier look of gelled soap. I know it's a subtle difference but it might be worth it to do PSOP of ungelled batches to see if the light coloration remained with a glossy look. I'll have to experiment some more with it.

I never gel my milk soaps either, and this is my first with honey so I was extra careful to avoid it with the original batch (24 hrs in the freezer!). I love the creamy texture and color of milk soaps, but sacrificed two of these bars yesterday for the sake of this trial. But I think they turned out fine, though I could live without the bumps. Other differences I see when looking closer are that the PSOP'd bars fell a little and are slightly bulging like they melted on the sides and expanded in the middle. I let them go a little too long in the oven, but hey, I didn't want partial gel, lol! The bulge would explain the bumps --like something was forced out. I scraped the bumps to see if they taste like honey, and guess what, they taste like SOAP!

The honeycomb is cute, huh. TVivian introduced them to us a couple months ago at:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42115
You can get your own here on ebay. If you like the comb, wait til you see the bees in the same mold! Adorable! I wasn't willing to risk ruining them for the sake of a little experiment :lolno:

Good luck with the rest of your experimenting, and let us know how it goes.

I make a soap not long ago where the whole bottom third of the soap is tightly packed embeds. (It was one of the do-over soaps I made out of the chopped up Soap from Hell mentioned elsewhere.) The new batter was made with GM powder, sugar and SL in it. I had insulated the soap and in the morning when I unwrapped it, it had a partial gel. That is, only the center of the top 2/3rds had gelled. It was the typical circle-shaped partial gel ring. This was a very small batch, just a 4-soaper, and since a third of it was embeds, there was barely enough new batter to get a gel going anyway, let alone maintain a decent temp, so I wasn't surprised. I re-wrapped it and put it back in the mould and put it in the oven for an hour and a half. I left the oven on the whole time, since I needed to be able to reheat the soap up from room temp through the wooden mould first and then added some extra time to allow the soap to reach a decent temp. I took it out again, let it cool, unwrapped one end and now the whole top 2/3rds had gelled nicely, but the whole of the bottom with all the embeds and maybe a ½ cm of the new batter immediately above that, still weren't gelled. It was easy to see, because the FO I used was one that turns brown, so it was easy to see what had gelled and what hadn't. The already saponified embeds (months old and cured soap) just weren't getting hot enough to allow the new soap in between to gel. Soooo, back in the oven it went! Again I had to heat the soap up from room temp and so on, so this last time, I left in the oven for 2½ hours, (oven on) and on the final unwrapping, all the new batter looked the same all the way from the top to the bottom. (When in the oven, I kept the temp at around 70C the whole time.)

So to recap, this soap had GM, SL and sugar in it. It was a very small batch (400 g oil) with a lot of tightly packed embeds (142g). It was insulated -> partial gel -> OP'ed -> OP'ed again. I have it filed as a CPOPOP soap, but maybe it should be called a CPPSOPOP soap. This is what it ended up looking like;