A question about lye & vegan soap

I was at my favorite health food store today, they had Dr. Bronners soap by the register & I commented to my boyfriend about the scent. The cashier overheard us and trying to make that additional sale, she began telling us all about the soap. She said that it was preservative and LYE FREE. I mentioned that I make my own & told her that there is no way that soap can be made without lye. She insisted that it was an "all vegan soap" & that "plant based glycerine is used as the thickening agent to make vegan soap bars"! She's normally very knowledgeable but at that moment she sounded like an idiot to me but I thought I'd double check with the all divas & dukes of soap making here to be sure. Is there a way to make soap without lye?

Like many commercial soaps marketed to bourgie ppl, Bronner's takes the "saponified oils of ___..." approach, rather than listing lye as an ingredient. This is probably smart, as uninformed/semi-informed ppl are absolutely terrified of lye, and the "saponified oils of" phrase is technically correct. As a result, I've revised my labeling strategy.

I've spoken with a number of ppl who swear that Bronner's (and similar products) is lye-free, and that's technically true for reasons that are covered exhaustively on this forum and elsewhere, but you're absolutely right that you cannot make soap--you cannot saponify an oil-- without lye (or a similarly alkaline substance, like KOH.) But these casual soap enthusiasts aren't claiming that Bronner's is lye-free in the sense that the lye was basically neutralized in the saponification process; they think that there was never any lye in it, as they tend to make these statements right after they express some distaste/terror at the fact that i use lye to make soap.

As for the vegan-ness of lye: the 99.9% pure food grade stuff I buy is supposedly almost exclusively made up of sodium hydroxide. Those 2 elements are presumably vegan in and of themselves, but I cannot say for sure that the means by which most commercially available lye is produced is technically vegan. A cursory google search turned up this page: http://vegan.fm/2010/08/sodium-hydroxide/ ; doesn't seem very informative, but it is good enough for me. I'm just a semi-repentant carnivore. :shock:

As for the health store clerk: I wouldn't call her an idiot based on this story, but she is obviously misinformed and guilty of at least one count of talking out of her undies.

All soap has lye, but you don't need to use lye to make some kinds of soap. The reason for that is you might be using pre-made soap or a glycerin based, melting it down, and pouring it into molds. This method may mean you don't handle the lye, but the soap or base you use was made with lye.

I'm not sure how I feel about "saponified oils of" in labeling. I am not saying it is dishonest because I don't think it is. On the other hand, if a customer asks why the label has lye or sodium hydroxide on it, it's an opportunity to educate that customer about how soap is made. "Saponified oils of" can be misleading. Besides soapers, does anyone really know what that means? If folks understand the lye is consumed in a chemical reaction and helps the oil become soap, then they won't worry about buying lye soap, and if they insist that so-and-so says that soap brand A has no lye, then it's an opportunity to explain how so-and-so might be confused. I understand why someone might avoiding using the word "lye," but the fact is that if you look at a commercial soap label, you can't pronounce most of the ingredients.

Dana,
What you say makes total sense, but often, customers do not have the opportunity to ask questions and get information. If your soap is on offer in a retail situation, and you're not there to explain, many customers will check out the label and say "LYE?!?!?! That'll burn my skin off!!"

I agree that most non-soapers do not know what saponification is, but most non-soapers do not know what role lye plays in the production of soap, either. I'd wager that the "saponified oils of" approach will retain more customers than listing "lye" as an ingredient will. It ain't right, but I think it's true.

-Rob

PS- from an accuracy standpoint, I rather like INCI-style terms like "sodium olivate," although technically, with superfatting, one cannot know exactly how much is now sodium olivate and how much remains just olive oil. Regardless, I think most uninformed ppl will see something like "sodium pilvate" and walk away thinking "that doesn't sound all-natural". As much as I enjoy semantics discussions about what "all-natural" means, I get the impression that most casual buyers of handmade bath products have a rather narrow preconceived notion that wouldn't include words like lye, sodium hydroxide, or even sodium olivate...

Thanks Bicycle808 & Danahuff. I was pretty sure that there is no soap without lye, but I'm still learning. Bicycle808, I think you misread my comment regarding the store clerk. I didn't say that she WAS an idiot, I said that she SOUNDED like one. I think I'd sound like one too if I tried to debate a topic that I knew nothing about with someone who was more informed on that topic.

she maybe an idot, if she chooses to stay misinformed. It sounds like she didnt believe you, and probaly wont check in with the manufacturer to get the truth. Which goes back to Bicycle's point about misinfo in the retail situation

About the whole "saponified oils of" thing. In the U.S. that is not the legal way to label your ingredients. You can do "Sodium Olivate" instead of Olive Oil and not have to list sodium hydroxide. But you can not list "saponified olive oil".

Genny said:

About the whole "saponified oils of" thing. In the U.S. that is not the legal way to label your ingredients. You can do "Sodium Olivate" instead of Olive Oil and not have to list sodium hydroxide. But you can not list "saponified olive oil".

Click to expand...

This is exactly what Dr Bronner's liquid soap lists. Saponified oils of.....with retained glycerin. A very accurate and descriptive statement. Mentioning the retained glycerin makes the saponification reaction obvious, and even if folks don't know what saponification is, they find out their soap has glycerin, retained because they do not take it out, just like in CP we do not take it out and it helps the conditioning properties of the soap. I have a lot of respect for Dr Bronner's soap and their company, and before I made my own soap, I bought their products.

Also, since ingredients do not need to be listed for soap made in the USA (if it is just soap) there is actually no right or wrong way to do it (since you are not required to do it anyway). Some folks prefer to list what goes in the soap before the reaction, and this is a choice, I do not find it accurate. The customer is not buying the oil and the NaOH, they are buying soap. Most folks care about what they are getting, not what I started with. If you mix them up though, like for example listing sodium cocoate AND NaOH, well, this gives the impression that there was saponification, but there is lye excess in the product. Not the impression we want to give!

I list mine because my customers want to know what is in the soap they buy. I list them in the most accurate possible way, and to me, listing lye in the label is inaccurate, since my soap has no lye in it. I feel listing an ingredient that has been 100% consumed and turned into something else (sodium olivate or saponified olive oil) is not accurate. However, when customers ask if I use lye in the process of making the soaps, I tell them of course! one cannot make soap without lye. I tell them I use NaOH for solid soap, and KOH for the liquid soap we also sell. However, there is no NaOH or KOH remaining in any of the products we sell.

We may not legally be required to list ingredients on soap by the FDA but if you do list them, you want to make sure they're not confusing to the customer because if they are, then you could get in trouble for deceptive labeling practices under the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act.

Genny said:

About the whole "saponified oils of" thing. In the U.S. that is not the legal way to label your ingredients. You can do "Sodium Olivate" instead of Olive Oil and not have to list sodium hydroxide. But you can not list "saponified olive oil".

Click to expand...

Actually you are not suppose to use the INCI, unless the common name is not available. The difference is whether you are labeling what is IN the soap or what went into the making of the soap. If you use sodium olivate you must be labeling what is in the soap, if you are, you must also list the glycerin that is created. Most people (at least the labels I've read) almost always get this wrong.

When labeling what went into the making you would not list glycerin but you would list lye.