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Soap Making Forum > The Soap Making & Craft Forum > Liquid Soap and Cream Soap Forum > Polysorbate 80 help
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:16 PM   #11
Zany_in_CO
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Why do you think one function precludes the other?
I know this probably won't fly with you, DeeAnna, but you asked and I'll try to explain my thinking. I don't dabble in syndets at all and I associate "surfactant" with those. As for "emulsifier", that translates to "Ewax" to my mind, and I understand it as more of an oil/water "binder" than dissolver, i.e., I wouldn't try subbing PS80 for an emulsifying wax. I hope that makes sense.
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I don't find PS20 and PS80 interchangeable at all. I have never had good results from PS20. My polysorbate of choice is PS80.
LOL That surprised my eyes! Once again, I think our backgrounds and experience are different. My knowledge of syndets is practically non-existent, so I can only guess why you "don't find PS20 and PS80 interchangeable at all."

As I've said before, I'm not a scientist. I just know what works for me. IME, and this isn't just me, as a solubizer, PS80 and PS20 can be used to make FOs and EOs water soluble for use in liquid soap, and in such products as linen spray, body mist, bug spray, etc., to eliminate the need to "shake before using".

Given my "no syndet" background and experience, it would never occur to me to use them as surfactants/emulsifiers. Altho, now that I've thought about it, your point is well taken. If used in a 100% natural product, I should change that to 99.97% +/- natural!


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Old 10-18-2017, 02:56 PM   #12
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I used 1% EO and 1% polysorbate 80.
It's good to keep in mind that "one-size-fits-all" doesn't work well when it comes to making EOs and FOs water-soluble. That's why I use a fragrance calculator like the one at MMS:
https://www.thesage.com/calcs/FragCalc.html

So, using Brewer George's finicky lemon EO as an example:
Click image for larger version

Name:	MMS Frag Calc.png
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So, for 64 oz. of liquid soap, for "strong" scent, I need 0.32 Oz Wt of Lemon EO. Before adding the EO to the batch, I would test to see how much polysorbate is needed to make the EO water soluble.

Since it's easier in this example to use volume measure, I would add 1 ml PS80 to a juice glass of water. Stir well. Then add 1 ml lemon EO. Stir well. Since it's likely to separate out, add another ml of PS80, stir well and repeat as necessary until the EO no longer separates out. Then you have an idea of how much PS80 you need to add to 0.32 Oz. Wt. of EO, i.e., 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 and so on.

Be sure to take notes! And warm the LS to about 140°F or so before adding fragrance -- that helps to incorporate any additives you may be using.

HTH


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Old 10-18-2017, 03:53 PM   #13
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"...Given my "no syndet" background and experience, it would never occur to me to use them as surfactants/emulsifiers...."

Zany -- you yourself say you use polysorbate for cleansing your skin or hair (can't remember the specific details) as well as for solubilizing products. Why do you think polysorbates are able to cleanse if you don't think they're surfactancts or emulsifiers? Just because you don't think you use synthetic detergents doesn't mean you are correct. Do your homework!

Lotioncrafter: "Polysorbate 80 is used as an emulsifier in combination with a variety of other hydrophobic emulsifiers to cover a wide range of oil in water, and water in oil emulsion systems. Individually, it is an excellent solubilizer..." http://www.lotioncrafter.com/polysorbate-80.html

Lotioncrafter: "Polysorbate 20 is used as a high HLB emulsifier in combination with a variety low HLB emulsifiers to cover a wide range of oil in water, and water in oil emulsion systems. Alone, it is an excellent solubilizer of essential oils, a wetting agent, viscosity modifier, stabilizer and dispersing agent...." http://www.lotioncrafter.com/polysorbate-20.html

Wikipedia: "Emulsifying wax is created when a wax material (either a vegetable wax of some kind or a petroleum-based wax) is treated with a detergent (typically sodium dodecyl sulfate or polysorbates)..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsifying_wax

Susan (swiftcraftymonkey): "[Polysorbates] are considered to be non-ionic surfactants..." http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca...?q=polysorbate
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Old 10-19-2017, 06:29 AM   #14
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Hello,

So Ive been using polysorbate 80 at 1% along with 1% essential oil in my liquid soap.

With peppermint essential oil it works great! My soap is clear! However, with my own blend of pink grapefruit, lemon and orange essential oils it still manages to separate, cloud and have a large layer of white fall to the bottom.

Can anyone recommend how to stop this? Is it due to citrus oils? Should I use a higher % of PS80?

More information on PS80 and essential oils for liquid soap would be much appreciated.

Cheers!
Citrus EOs are notorious for causing exactly what you describe. And even when using distilled water and a higher amount of PS80, you will still get the oils floating on the top and the white stuff at the bottom. Even more confusing is that the citrus EOs from this source will differ from the citrus EOs from another source. And sometimes they will differ even with different lots from the same source. I attribute this to the differing sources of the fruits utilized. Just accept and expect this and know that you are going to have to test and wait to see to know what the correct amount of PS80 will be for each batch of EO.


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