Water Discounts. Handholding needed!

Hi there,

I could use a little help as I begin to experiment with water discounts. Please be patient with me, as anything involving math makes me break out in hives.

Being new to using Titanium dioxide, I read as much as I could on here and elsewhere about properly dispersing this colorant, and in the process learned that "glycerin rivers" would often occur in the finished soap if 1) the soap gelled and 2) no water discount was used. I had always used soapcalc's default setting for my water amount, which I believe is 38% water as a percentage of the oil weight. However, last night I used what I thought was a water discount, using a recipe in which my water was 33% of the oil weight. I was somewhat surprised that I got glycerin rivers in the soap.

But I was reading this article on Auntie Clara's marvelous site earlier today ( https://auntieclaras.com/2014/05/glycerine-rivers-secret-revealed/) and she mentioned that she often uses a lye to water ratio of 1/1.4. Using my very shaky math, I figured that this equates to a nearly 71% lye concentration, whereas my supposed water discount of last night was a measly 42%. (Does that make sense? I have only just now discovered that I can create recipes using ratios of lye weight to water weight, so thinking of lye concentration in these terms is new to me).

Anyway, I am going to try to remake the soap tonight in an effort to not get glycerin rivers, but running my recipe thru soapee's lye calculator using the 1/1.4 lye/water ratio gives me a mere 3.15 ounces of water to use with the 2.25 ounces of lye called for. (I had used 5.28 ounces of water last night). Am I going to have trouble dissolving the lye in this skimpy amount of water? Should I filter/strain the lye water just in case? And is it likely that trace will be so sped up that I'll even have trouble incorporating the TiO2?

I don't know why I am so leery of a stronger lye solution, but I am. Thanks for any tips or ideas for further suggested reading for me.

Lye will dissolve at 50/50 water:lye so I am not sure what you looked up on Auntie Clara's site, since she does not usually have wrong information I question what you were reading. You would need to have 4.5 oz of distilled water to dissolve 2.25 oz lye, and I do not recommend using 50% lye concentration, I have tried it with 100% olive oil soap, which traces very quickly, and was quite unhappy with the results. In soapee in box 3 check the second option (lye concentration) type in 33% which is a very workable lye concentration and a decent water discount. I very seldom get crackle unless I end up with a very hot gel. Your default of 38% water as a percentage of the oil weight is approximately a 25% lye concentration. One reason crackle happens with high water is the higher water the hotter the gel most of the time

I think a saturated solution of naoh and water is approximately 50/50 by weight at 20 degrees C, so you shoudn't have a problem. As the temperature increases, so does the solubility, and the temp will definitely increase, so you'd be quite safe insofar as the naoh dissolving is concened.

I think there is a little confusion here because we are used to seeing a "water to lye" ratio rather than a "lye to water ratio". A 1:1.4 lye to water ratio equals 1.4:1 water to lye ratio which equals 41.67% lye concentration. It would be hard to gel soaps with that lye concentration, but it is safe to use.

The math is part ÷ whole x 100% Which looks like
1 ÷ (1+1.4) x 100% = 41.67%

You might get some harmless floaties on top of your lye water from lye reacting with carbon dioxide from the air. This concentration might speed trace, so be ready!

Carolyn's suggestion to try a 33% lye concentration is a good one - it should be the default in lye calculators because it is so easy to work with.

Soapcalc displays the water first in a ratio. This is important to notice. I'll explain why further down, but for the moment we'll work on how ratio's work.

Question:
In a water:lye ratio of 2:1, what is my lye concentration?

2 of these parts are water
1 part is your lye crystals

So the total number of parts you have is 3, in a 2:1 ratio.

Your lye concentration is calculated by dividing the number of parts of lye crystals you have, by the total number of parts.

So, the maths is ... lye concentration equals 1 divided by 3.

Answer:
In a 2:1 mix of Water:Lye, you have a total number of parts of 3, and your lye concentration calculation is 1/3, or roughly 33%.

Lye/Total = Lye Concentration

Orchidgirl said:

... I was reading this article on Auntie Clara's marvelous site earlier today (https://auntieclaras.com/2014/05/glycerine-rivers-secret-revealed/) and she mentioned that she often uses a lye to water ratio of 1/1.4. Using my very shaky math, I figured that this equates to a nearly 71% lye concentration, whereas my supposed water discount of last night was a measly 42%. (Does that make sense? I have only just now discovered that I can create recipes using ratios of lye weight to water weight, so thinking of lye concentration in these terms is new to me).

Click to expand...

Here the ratio is described with the lye first, and the water second.

This is important to notice, so you are sure to get the right amount for the number of parts of lye crystals.

Question
In a lye:water ratio of 1:1.4, what is my lye concentration?

1 part is your lye crystals
1.4 of these parts are water

So the total number of parts you have is 2.4, in a 1:1.4 ratio.

For this example, of lye:water being 1:1.4, your calculation for lye concentration is still:

Lye/Total = Lye Concentration

Answer:
In a 1:1.4 mix of Lye:Water, you have a total number of parts of 2.4, and your lye concentration calculation is 1/2.4, or roughly 42%.


I agree it's easiest to work with lye concentration.

I do hope this has helped.

Millie beat me by a minute with her edit! AND said it shorter lol.

You explained it better though

Wow, thank you ALL so much for the input. I am going to read back through everything on this thread.

Cmzaha--I am sure any confusion is my fault; I probably stated things a bit oddly, haha. I am certain the info on her site is accurate. Thanks for your advice about the lye solution.

SaltedFig--Yes! Thanks you for taking the time to state things as you did. That absolutely helped.

Millie--Thanks for the equation. That is also helpful.

Ford Prefect--Okay, good to hear. I actually figured the heat would help things dissolve, so I appreciate your insight on that.

I'll be making my new batch later tonight. I think (and I'm going to read back through here and on Clara's website to make sure) that I might possibly be okay attempting to dissolve my 2.25 oz lye in the 3.15 oz water, but perhaps for tonight I'll stick with cmzaha's 50% lye concentration, just to see what happens.

I'm thinking that I did indeed have a hot gel phase for this soap, so I appreciate the insight cmzaha offered that that may have caused the crackle. This was my first batch ever using a silicone mold, which I believe tends to insulate the soap more. One of the fragrance oils that I used also supposedly accelerates trace (though I did not notice that) and it perhaps may have heated things up further, too.

One last question: SaltedFig helpfully stated, "In a 1:1.4 mix of Lye:Water, you have a total number of parts of 2.4, and your lye concentration calculation is 1/2.4, or roughly 42%." This is the same as a 33% water as % of oil weight, right?

Thanks for helping me get my head around this, everyone! I will try to post pictures later on to show how the soaps turned out.

ETA: It is good to hear from cmzaha that the 33% water as % of oil weight is a decent water discount to use. Now that I think about it, I may practice some more with this concentration before leaping into much stronger solutions. And, never mind my last question. I have confused myself again. I think SaltedFig's post earlier in this thread already answered it. I need to read everything over much more carefully, I think. Truly, it's embarassing to be as poor at basic arithmetic as I am.

That's not what she said. She said to use a 33% lye concentration. That is nothing at all like using a 38% water as % of oils, which she also stated was more like a 25% lye concentration.

You don't need to do calculations. That is what soapcalc is for.

Go to the main screen and put in WATER/LYE ratio you want 1.4:1 then click on the Calculate recipe button down the bottom and then on the view recipe button below it.

On the next screen it shows you all the other values automatically.
It is best to just work with one and get used to it. (Most use Lye concentration)
Water as percent of oil weight 18.02 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 41.667 %
Water : Lye Ratio 1.4000:1

"... I think (and I'm going to read back through here and on Clara's website to make sure) that I might possibly be okay attempting to dissolve my 2.25 oz lye in the 3.15 oz water, but perhaps for tonight I'll stick with cmzaha's 50% lye concentration, just to see what happens."

That would be dissolving 2.25 oz NaOH in 2.25 oz water. Just checking if that is the direction you want to head.

"One last question: SaltedFig helpfully stated, "In a 1:1.4 mix of Lye:Water, you have a total number of parts of 2.4, and your lye concentration calculation is 1/2.4, or roughly 42%." This is the same as a 33% water as % of oil weight, right?"

It depends on your recipe. When using "water as percent of oils" at a particular rate, you'll always use the same amount of water for every single batch of the same size. The amount of sodium hydroxide will change for each batch though, because different oils have different amounts of unsaponifiables, the components of an oil that won't react with lye.

When using "lye concentration", the water amount will change from batch to batch, as will the amount of sodium hydroxide, but the water and sodium hydroxide will stay consistant in relation to each other. And these stay consistant in relation to the parts of oil that will react with lye. This will give you more consistant results.

DeeAnna wrote an article about the problems using "water as percent of oil weight" here:
Https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

I believe cmzaha was referring to a 33% lye concentration, rather than water as % of oils. It is the same as 1:2 NaOH:water, written in soapcalc as 2:1 water:lye, so

Part ÷ whole x 100%
lye ÷ (lye + water) x 100% = lye concentration
1 ÷ 3 x 100% = 33.33%

I like PenelopeJane's suggestion to let a lye calculator to handle the math. Just ignore the "water as % of oil" box. It is the devil.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

That's not what she said. She said to use a 33% lye concentration. That is nothing at all like using a 38% water as % of oils, which she also stated was more like a 25% lye concentration.

Click to expand...

Yes, thanks. I understood that to be the case several minutes after I posted, which was why I added what I did at the end when I edited my post.

penelopejane said:

You don't need to do calculations. That is what soapcalc is for.

Go to the main screen and put in WATER/LYE ratio you want 1.4:1 then click on the Calculate recipe button down the bottom and then on the view recipe button below it.

On the next screen it shows you all the other values automatically.
It is best to just work with one and get used to it. (Most use Lye concentration)
Water as percent of oil weight 18.02 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 41.667 %
Water : Lye Ratio 1.4000:1

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yes, I'll definitely play with this feature.

Millie said:

"... I think (and I'm going to read back through here and on Clara's website to make sure) that I might possibly be okay attempting to dissolve my 2.25 oz lye in the 3.15 oz water, but perhaps for tonight I'll stick with cmzaha's 50% lye concentration, just to see what happens."

That would be dissolving 2.25 oz NaOH in 2.25 oz water. Just checking if that is the direction you want to head.

"One last question: SaltedFig helpfully stated, "In a 1:1.4 mix of Lye:Water, you have a total number of parts of 2.4, and your lye concentration calculation is 1/2.4, or roughly 42%." This is the same as a 33% water as % of oil weight, right?"

It depends on your recipe. When using "water as percent of oils" at a particular rate, you'll always use the same amount of water for every single batch of the same size. The amount of sodium hydroxide will change for each batch though, because different oils have different amounts of unsaponifiables, the components of an oil that won't react with lye.

When using "lye concentration", the water amount will change from batch to batch, as will the amount of sodium hydroxide, but the water and sodium hydroxide will stay consistant in relation to each other. And these stay consistant in relation to the parts of oil that will react with lye. This will give you more consistant results.

DeeAnna wrote an article about the problems using "water as percent of oil weight" here:
Https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

I believe cmzaha was referring to a 33% lye concentration, rather than water as % of oils. It is the same as 1:2 NaOH:water, written in soapcalc as 2:1 water:lye, so

Part ÷ whole x 100%
lye ÷ (lye + water) x 100% = lye concentration
1 ÷ 3 x 100% = 33.33%

I like PenelopeJane's suggestion to let a lye calculator to handle the math. Just ignore the "water as % of oil" box. It is the devil.

Click to expand...

Thank you so very much. I definitely mistated what cmzaha had proposed--trying to dissolve a certain amount of lye in an equal amount of water is certainly NOT the direction I was trying to head in. I think I get it now, though. Your explanation of how a 33% lye concentration is the same as the ratio 1:2 of NaOH to H2O has helped me greatly; it's of course an obvious thing (three parts, one of which is therefore 33% of the whole), but I'm one of those folks who needs things written out v-e-r-y clearly before I can understand. I will read DeeAnna's article that you linked to, as well!

Sigh. I have a facility in learning every language I have ever studied...except for the universal one (math).

Thanks again!

cmzaha said:

Lye will dissolve at 50/50 water:lye so I am not sure what you looked up on Auntie Clara's site, since she does not usually have wrong information I question what you were reading. You would need to have 4.5 oz of distilled water to dissolve 2.25 oz lye, and I do not recommend using 50% lye concentration, I have tried it with 100% olive oil soap, which traces very quickly, and was quite unhappy with the results. In soapee in box 3 check the second option (lye concentration) type in 33% which is a very workable lye concentration and a decent water discount. I very seldom get crackle unless I end up with a very hot gel. Your default of 38% water as a percentage of the oil weight is approximately a 25% lye concentration. One reason crackle happens with high water is the higher water the hotter the gel most of the time

Click to expand...

Is it possible that you used too much lye when you made that castille soap? Olive oil tends to resist turning into soap and doesn't exactly want to cooperate. My first time, I made 2 loaves back to back. The first loaf, I had to take breaks from stick blending and took 2 hours. For some reason, my second loaf only took about an hour to blend. I used .135 to determine my lye amount if that helps. I do realize the general rule is .131 for olive but soapers choice says there's is .135. The next morning I cut them and they have been curing ever since. 3 more months to go and I can get them off the shelf.

In addition. I've had glycerin rivers once. After that I've reduced my water greatly and I haven't had rivers since nor have I had any soap freeze up like before. I seem to have less problems where you would think that by reducing water you would have more problems.

Wrong math here: Sorry

Millie said:

I think there is a little confusion here because we are used to seeing a "water to lye" ratio rather than a "lye to water ratio". A 1:1.4 lye to water ratio equals 1.4:1 water to lye ratio which equals 41.67% lye concentration. It would be hard to gel soaps with that lye concentration, but it is safe to use.

The math is part ÷ whole x 100% Which looks like
1 ÷ (1+1.4) x 100% = 41.67%

You might get some harmless floaties on top of your lye water from lye reacting with carbon dioxide from the air. This concentration might speed trace, so be ready!

Carolyn's suggestion to try a 33% lye concentration is a good one - it should be the default in lye calculators because it is so easy to work with.

Click to expand...

I would have to totally disagree and here's why..
With this concentration, there is more lye which means there will have to be more oil in the loaf ( more water = less soap ). As a result, this concentration will start heating up before she even gets through cleaning up. It will gel much faster and hotter and be ready much quicker. And in addition, it can also solve in freezing up in the future but I will say, depending on her recipe, she doesn't need to do anything extremely fancy. Just some color and a little swirl or two and maybe a Taiwan swirly thingy.
Since I have started doing this I haven't had any freeze ups. I don't waste time but no freeze ups.

iwannasoap said:

I would have to totally disagree and here's why..
With this concentration, there is more lye which means there will have to be more oil in the loaf ( more water = less soap ). As a result, this concentration will start heating up before she even gets through cleaning up. It will gel much faster and hotter and be ready much quicker. And in addition, it can also solve in freezing up in the future but I will say, depending on her recipe, she doesn't need to do anything extremely fancy. Just some color and a little swirl or two and maybe a Taiwan swirly thingy.
Since I have started doing this I haven't had any freeze ups. I don't waste time but no freeze ups.

Click to expand...

You're confusing the way the calculations are done, I think.

The weight and type of fats and the superfat are the only factors that determine the NaOH weight.

The the amount of water is calculated based on that NaOH weight, assuming one chooses to use lye concentration or water:lye ratio.

If I change the lye concentration or the water:lye ratio, all I do is change the weight of the WATER ONLY. It does nothing to change the weight of NaOH or of the fats.

I also know from experience that soaping at 40% lye concentration or so does not necessarily cause rapid heating, so you can't make a blanket assumption that this is true. It CAN be true, but not necessarily. There are so many other factors that affect the time to trace and the rate of saponification.

For an example, look at one of last year's SMF challenges where we explored the use of a high-water, low-water technique to affect the color and overall appearance of our soap. Many of us found we had to add the more concentrated lye solution to the low water portion of the batter first, because it moved much slower than the higher water portion. This is the opposite of what you are thinking.

Here's a link to the challenge DeeAnna mentioned http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57559&highlight=ghost+swirl

It was very educational for me. I had never soaped with the low water before the challenge. WOW!!!
Slow as molasses on a cold day.

Thanks for sharing the link, Steve -- much appreciated!

Just sit back and hold on to something!

DeeAnna said:

You're confusing the way the calculations are done, I think.

The weight and type of fats and the superfat are the only factors that determine the NaOH weight.

The the amount of water is calculated based on that NaOH weight, assuming one chooses to use lye concentration or water:lye ratio.

If I change the lye concentration or the water:lye ratio, all I do is change the weight of the WATER ONLY. It does nothing to change the weight of NaOH or of the fats.

I also know from experience that soaping at 40% lye concentration or so does not necessarily cause rapid heating, so you can't make a blanket assumption that this is true. It CAN be true, but not necessarily. There are so many other factors that affect the time to trace and the rate of saponification.

For an example, look at one of last year's SMF challenges where we explored the use of a high-water, low-water technique to affect the color and overall appearance of our soap. Many of us found we had to add the more concentrated lye solution to the low water portion of the batter first, because it moved much slower than the higher water portion. This is the opposite of what you are thinking.

Click to expand...

I am so glad to help you! You made my day when you said "The weight and type of fats and the superfat are the only factors that determine the NaOH weight.
" because it is what so many soapers don't realize which is also what stumped me because it is not taught - Especially from a bad program design of a soap calculator. (I know. I am a jobless programmer working in another field)

This is where a soap calculator fails! You cannot see it but I can show you and give you background info. Follow me here,

Get on your favorite soap calc. I used Wholesale supplies plus.

Your scenario is "You only want 50 oz of Castille soap to fill your mold"
CLick the radio button for NaOH of course
Type in 37.1 oz of oil (I know this will make 50.01 oz @ .135 SAP Olive, Calc uses .131 probably. Close enough)
Delete the "Water as % of Oils"
Click on the "Water : Lye Ratio" radio button
Type in "60:40"
5% SF and leave the rest blank no fragrance. (None of that matters anyways for this experiment)
Double click Olive oil and make it 100%
Make sure "Multiple tabs is selected"
Click calculate
Click "View or Print"
Leave the tab it brought and go back to the original tab
Leave everything the same but change the "Water : Lye Ratio" to 55:45
Click calculate
Click "View or Print"
Leave the tab it brought and go back to the original tab
Leave everything the same but change the "Water : Lye Ratio" to 50:50

Leave those tabs up for now so I can explain something. I will start from the simple to more of a soaping point of view.
First realize this - if you have a 16 oz cup and you wanted to fill it with 2 ingredients, whatever it may be, Ingredient 1 would be 8 oz and Ingredient 2 would be 8 oz. If you wanted to change those ingredients and still make 16 oz your next step would be Ingredient 1 changes to 7 oz and Ingredient 2 changes to 9 oz. to total 16. Next would be Ingredient 1 changes to 6 oz and Ingredient 2 changes to 10 oz for a total of 16 oz to fill the bottle.
This relationship between Ingredient 1 and 2 depend on each other. When ever one changes the other changes to be able to get the same total oz.

Now, lets make it a little more complicated. Lets put 3 ingredients in the bottle. Lets make 1 lye, 2 water, 3 oil.
Each one of those depend on each other but much more intricate since it involves 3 values.
This is actual numbers for this scenario to make 16 oz loaf
Watch closely
Water lye ratio 50:50
Olive oil: 358.62 gr (12.64 oz)
Water: 47.45 gr (1.67 oz)
Lye: 47.45 gr ( 1.67 oz.)
Please keep in mind, ounces are not as accurate as grams when adding this.
Results in 16 oz soap

If I increase my water 4.69 grams I will now have a total of 16.16 oz of soap. I don't want that. I want 16 oz because that will waste soap. Besides that, how will I screw on my bottle cap? So something else will have to decrease. The only thing I have left to decrease is the oil. And if I decrease the oil, I will HAVE to decrease the lye!

The new numbers will be
Oil: 354.94 g (12.52 oz)
Lye:46.96 g (1.66 oz)
Water: 51.65 g (1.82 oz)


Since I added more water, the oil in my recipe is now 354.94 gr (12.52 oz)
which is less then the first scenario to make the same 16 oz of soap.
This is also where the calc fails but going the opposite direction.

Go back to those tabs that you pulled up separately so I can demonstrate where a calc fails please. If you look closely you will see a couple of things wrong and I'll point that out. The end result though means that the real difference between the 50:50 ratio and the last one at 60:40 should actually be 9 more grams of lye (which is significant because ((49.037 - 46.65) * .135) but yet it does not show the oil increasing or decreasing. It only shows your total oz. going up. Remember, in this scenario you only want a certain amount to stay constant. No matter what that may be.

If you look through the tabs and add up all the weights (49.037 oz, 47.711 oz, 46.65 oz) You will see every thing, for some reason, stayed the same EXCEPT for your total amount. As you decreased (or increased) your water, your total weight ALSO went down. It went down to 46.65 oz and that is not what you wanted. You wanted 50oz.

The only way to fix that is to go back to the original tab and increase your oil amount to 39.54 (which is 2.44 oz greater then originally which takes more lye.)

So, you see, by adjusting the water your actually increasing or decreasing the amount of soap in the bar and possibly the loaf. Water does not turn into soap but it has everything to do with the amount of oil and lye that you use.

A little back ground.
Like I said, I am an out of work programmer so I am very efficient with spreadsheets. I can see much more information much faster and more efficient then a soap calc. What took me a few weeks of my off time to see and make takes most people years to see on a calculator.
And speaking of the challenge, I will definitely take a look at that but soapers need to see how water changes ALL values and not just look at soap calculators at face value. Calculators can only show it to you once and that is the problem. This is one way how many people mess up and it actually messes up there loaf's and even recipe's. I've read it here and I know exactly what their doing when it comes to certain things, not all because of limited experience, but some.

Hope this helps you. I really do. You will have more control and more soap in the same size bar.

Could you ... make a new thread?

Please.

"...So, you see, by adjusting the water your actually increasing or decreasing the amount of soap in the bar and possibly the loaf. Water does not turn into soap but it has everything to do with the amount of oil and lye that you use...."

Um, thanks, but I went through all this some years ago and figured it out on my own. Perhaps others will benefit, however, so I'm glad you shared your point of view. That was a lot of work to write all that, and I appreciate the effort.

"...If I increase my water 4.69 grams I will now have a total of 16.16 oz of soap. I don't want that. I want 16 oz because that will waste soap...."

One point you're trying to make is that varying the amount of water in a recipe while holding the NaOH and fat constant will alter the total volume of the soap batter. Sure, no problem.

And you are also saying if you want to hold the volume of batter constant, but want to change the water content, then you have to alter the fat weight to maintain constant volume. I get that as well.

But here's the deal -- I honestly don't worry about small changes in batter volume that result from modest changes in the recipe. After making soap for awhile, I'm well aware that changing the water content or the kinds of fats or the superfat in my recipe will alter the total volume of the soap batter. But it's not going to change it enough to matter to me. Maybe to you, but not to me. I can't get enthused about agonizing over these details.

***

The calcs don't explain all the background that you want them to explain ... but they aren't "bad" as you label them ... because it's not the mission of soap recipe calculators to educate. They are there to do a given set of mathematical calculations, plain and simple.

If you want to design your own calc that meets your own expectations and requirements, then by all means do it. I'm sure people will be interested to see what you can provide.

***

But, as SaltedFig is plaintively pointing out, this thread is perhaps not the best place for you to pursue this line of thought.

Steve85569 said:

Here's a link to the challenge DeeAnna mentioned http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57559&highlight=ghost+swirl

It was very educational for me. I had never soaped with the low water before the challenge. WOW!!!
Slow as molasses on a cold day.

Click to expand...

Appreciate the link. I read it and it sounds interesting. I usually soap with the lowest water you can use or maybe just a tad more. Often it has solved my freezing up problems and I find it contradicts, correctly, what several people have told me and I just joined a few days ago.
It has never occurred to me to soap at 2 water ratios.
Would you know how to find the pictures of what people sent in? I really would like to see them to get my own ideas when I do it.