Beard and shave soap

Hi all,

My goal is to create a shaving soap that can double up as a shaving soap for men.
I have read a lot of threads about using stearic acid and or tallow to create the lasting lather for a shaving soap and the creamy feel of a shampoo bar.
I have also started using a PVC pipe to make round soap bars.
Unfortunately, both batches have siezed in the PVC mould. The soap seemed to trace fine. The first time I thought it was the essential oils used for the soap, so the second one had no essential oils or fragrances. But it still seized.

Is there something special I need to know about soaping with tallow? Or is my problem the PVC piping that I use for the mould?

Thanks for your help.

Charles

Can you define what you mean by seized? You couldn't get it out or something else?

I don't make shaving soaps but defining what you mean by seized might help someone give you advice.

When I say the soap seized, I mean it basically crystallized. It became rock hard. When I unmolded it and tried to cut it, it just chipped off. It must have overheated or something.
There was no indication of seizing prior to pouring it into the mold. It was quite a thick trace, but it behaved pretty well before molding.
I have posted two pics with the results.

There is the great big "My first Shaving Soap" thread by songwind that is an excellent read for an adventure through the recipes of shaving soaps. If you click that link above it will just take you to a recent post I made in that thread about my own first batch for personal use.

That batch was stearic acid, tallow, coconut, shea and lanolin with added glycerin done as a HP recipe with all KOH to keep it soft.

I know the thread is long but it is actually a very good read all the way through. People talk about trying different oils, mention successful recipes, chat about problems and discuss fragrances or EOs.

Folks will need to know your *exact* recipe with weights and method used before any specific help can be given.

I think DeeAnna uses parchment to make a roll of shaving soap to cut up after hardening and some people use clean Pringles cartons for the same reason.

That was a pretty big batch for a first go. Once it is safe to handle (zap test) I wonder if it could it be grated and re-batched or reused in some other way?

Haha. You know the camera adds 10kgs. It was about 600g. The PVC is only 50mm in diameter. But yes, that's what I did. Grated and rebatched. Unfortunately it was still lye heavy. At least my wife doesn't have to buy laundry detergent this month.

Based on pics it looks like you waited too long to unmold and cut. An exact recipe will help (I forgot to ask about that earlier). Did you mention how long you waited to unmold?

That might be. But I only waited about 24 hours before unmolding. I did use hard oils though. How long would you recommend to wait before unmolding?
Here is my recipe.

15% Coconut oil (76) - 75g
10% Sunflower oil - 50g
40% Palm oil - 200g
10% Shea butter - 50g
25% Tallow (Beef) - 125g
190g Water (38% water as % of oil weight)
70g Lye - 5% discount

No KOH was used in this recipe.

Oh, yes. I posted pics on this thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=653286#post653286

With 90% hard oils it sounds like it set up much faster than you were expecting. If you chose to use this or a similar recipe again I would suggest checking every hour to see if it's ready to unmold.

This looks like a great body soap but I don't know if it will have enough slip for a comfortable shave. (I'll comment again that I don't make shave soap and there may be something magic that I don't know about)

Seizing, as most soapers define it, is something happens in the soap pot -- the soap batter turns very thick, even solid, before it can be molded. Seizing doesn't happen in the mold -- firming up in the mold is what soap is supposed to do.

I understand your soap has become unexpectedly brittle, tis true. IMO, this brittleness is typical for soaps with a good % of tallow, as yours has. The solution for this recipe is to unmold and cut the soap much sooner than you did. If you increase the % of other types of fats for the same % of tallow or lower the % of tallow in proportion to the other ingredients, you may see less of this this brittleness. Also, adding KOH will help vs all NaOH.

Your recipe looks okay as far as the amount of NaOH, water, and such, so if the soap passes a zap test as a doublecheck that you didn't make a measuring error, it's going to be safe to use. As far as it being a good shave soap, it doesn't have enough stearic and palmitic acids in the recipe for the lather to have a dense, protective texture.

"...My goal is to create a shaving soap that can double up as a shaving soap for men...."

I don't understand. If you mean you want to make a shave soap for women that can be used by men, well, then make a good shave soap and all will be happy.

If you mean a shampoo soap that can be used as a shave soap, I doubt any recipe that is reasonably close to the typical "shampoo soaps" floating around will please a hard-core shaver dude. A "shampoo bar" is essentially a type of bath soap. A good shave soap is not a good bath soap.

Thanks Daniel. That is a very interesting read. I have purchased KOH and will definitely take a shot at that recipe.
The only ingredient that I don't have at the moment is Lanolin. Could I use a substitute? It seems like the ingrfedients and the grade of ingredients have a big impact on the finished product.

Hi DeeAnna,

Thanks for the advice. At least it's good to know it's not the recipe or the mold, because I really had my heart set on making soap discs.
Could you recommend a waiting time to check if the soap is ready to unmold? Or do I simply poke it with something to see if it has hardened enough?
I have also read a lot of recommendations using stearic acid in shaving soap. I assume this will also harden the soap a lot faster.

Yes, you are right. I meant to say a shaving soap that could be used as a shampoo bar. I see what you mean that it's more of a bath soap than a shaving soap. I got the idea from a product that I saw online. Here is the link. https://hudsonmadeny.com/products/original-white-beard-shave-soap

This product would compliment my market tremendously, as you can imagine the convenience of a beard and shaving soap in one. Considering that beards are in fashion these days, I get a lot of inquiries about beard products. That is why this product attracted my attention.
Can we find some sort of convergence between a shampoo and shaving bar?
Or would be better to make a beard and body soap combo and rather make a shaving soap for shaving only?

You will just have to check. If the soap very slightly gives to finger pressure, it's probably time to unmold and cut. If it's softer -- more like wet modeling clay -- you should wait. If it's as hard as a rock, you're too late. The timing is recipe and method dependent, so unless I make your recipe exactly as you make it, I can't give more exact advice.

If you want a shaving soap that will please people who want a cushiony, slick, lasting lather -- lather that would please the straight razor users and other shavers with exacting tastes -- I don't think you can make a 2-in-1 shaving and shampooing product. If your clientele is less particular about the quality of the lather for shaving, then you might be able to create a shampoo bar that appeals to them for shaving as well. It all depends on your audience.

The soap you gave a link to contains these main ingredients: Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerin, Purifies Water, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Sorbitan Oleate, Hydrolyzed Soy Bean Protein. The ingredients, if they're listed correctly in descending order by weight, read more like a melt-and-pour soap and more like a soap used for basic bathing. Coconut oil, IMO, is not very likely to be the main ingredient for a good shave soap.

Also, you need to read up on shampoo bars -- the soap bars people use for washing their hair. There is a lot of controversy about using lye-based soap on hair. Some people are fine with it, but many (me included) have found out the hard way that long term use of lye-based soap damages hair to the point of needing to cut it off and start over. I can't imagine a guy with a long beard that's taken years to grow will appreciate the hair becoming rough, dry and lifeless from using lye-based soap to wash it.

Thank you all for the advice.
I made my first shaving soap last weekend. 52% Stearic acid and 48% Coconut oil with KOH. I added a tablespoon of Glycerine to curb the dryness. I think I might add some more next time. But it turned out great. It made a fantastic lather.

Aim for 50% Stearic plus Palmitic acids and around 15% oleic and linoleic acids -- I've found this to give the best shaving soap.

I don't like castor oil in shaving soap, but it doesn't bother other people. If you use it, consider the ricinoleic acids to be the same as oleic.

Please don't use olive oil, it's not good in shaving soap for some reason.

Lots of ways to get to the correct profile, but don't complicate it too much -- only the superfat makes much difference in face feel.

Plan to hot process -- you will have to with stearic acid anyway, and if you reserve the fats you want for the super fat and add them after the cook, it's much more likely you will get them as free fats in the soap.

I'm happy with 60% KOH, but any ratio higher than that all the way up to 100% KOH is fine. Less will cause the soap to be very hard and difficult to lather.

The songwind thread is a great read, if rather long (and read all of it, lots of good information). Lee Bussey has a good write-up at Silver Fox Crafts, too, and I've based my recipes on his. He did all the hard work....

I use 5% each cocoa butter and shea butter for superfat (at 5%, hold out half of each until after the cook) and am very happy. The cocoa butter tends to discolor to tan unless you put in some EDTA or citric acid though.

Peter

Right. I read that a 60/40 ratio of KOH and NaOH is a good ratio. But I haven't tried any soaping with both yet.
Will have to give it a try.

I made another version of this shaving soap with 5% superfat of shea and jojoba after the cook.
The soap came out of the mould looking like marble. But after a week's cure it turned out an even white.
It turned out pretty well, but the lather took slightly longer.

I also tried some different essential oil scents.
Cedarwood, patchouli and lemon blend is my favourite. Second in line is Cedar, Cinnamon.