Castile soap problem

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LucasSoap

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Hello,

My wife is having eczema and I have been making her CP soap for a while already (it seems that she is improving which is great!). We do really like the soap and our friends always ask us for extras :). I have already made a number of batches (more than 15 I think :)) and never had an issue except for the Castile soap. Please find the recipe below:


Water: 299 grams (33%)
Lye: 117 grams
Oil: 907 grams
Superfat: 5%
Soaping at 115 F


It seems that I cannot let it cure for more than 16 hours. If I let it go for 24 hours or more it is very crumbly when I cut it. I tried different oil brands but I always have the same results. For example, yesterday I made a new batch at 11 AM. I let it cure for about 20 hours and when I cut it, the soap crumbled just a bit. It is usable but I want to make sure I am not doing anything wrong. I have noticed that the soap does not gel.


I am considering the following:
- Always cut soap at 16 hour mark.
- Adding a bit of sugar or 5% of castor oil just to kick start the gel phase.
- Adding some sodium lactate so I can start cutting at 12 hour mark.
- Adding more water (38 %) so I can let it go for about 24 hours and cut it as soon as I can.


Let me know if you find anything suspicious or strange.
Thanks!
 
I double-checked your recipe in the Soapee calculator, and it looks to me that you're actually using a 28% Lye Concentration, not 33% - you may want to double-check your recipe.

For 33% Lye Concentration, your recipe should have around 237g water. Otherwise, the values you provided look good.

Do you have a reliable scale? Are you zap-testing your crumbly batches? Have any pics?
 
100% olive oil soap can indeed get very hard fairly soon. If it needs to be cut at 12 hours or 16 hours or whatever, then it needs to be cut then. You have to adjust your technique to suit the soap rather than force the soap to adjust to your schedule. Unmolding and cutting works best when the soap is like firm cheddar cheese -- in the middle between hard Parmesan and soft cream cheese. For most of my recipes most of the time, that's about 18 hours or so.

If this olive oil soap is hard enough without sodium lactate, why do you want to add SL to the recipe? Not trying to ambush you -- just curious to know your logic.

You are talking about 33% and 38% water -- do you mean "water as % of oils"? If so, consider using lye concentration or water:lye ratio instead. You will get more consistent results in your soaping if you make this change. Most people use 33% to 40% lye concentration (2:1 to 1.5:1 water:lye ratio) for olive oil soap.

Your lye concentration is more like 28% lye concentration, which is getting on the edge of being too much water for consistently acceptable results. Adding more water doesn't necessarily mean the soap will just be softer for longer -- more water may make the soap more likely to separate in the mold due to emulsion failure.
 
Thanks toxikon. Yes you are correct I am using 28% lye concentration (33% of water as percent of oil weight). Attached please find the exact recipe.

I did a ZAP test and it does not ZAP. I can also vouch for my scale.

It is so strange that I am having this issue with just Castile soap...I just cannot explain it. To be honest so far I did 3 batches of Castile soap. I waited 36 h before I cut the first batch and it was beyond repair as it completely crumbled. The second batch, 13 hours, and it was fine to cut - still a bit soft outside but it was fine. Today I cut my last batch and it was curing for 20 hours - it started to crumble just a bit but it is fine I guess - I think I have lost 2 bars but the others are fine.

I will try to post the picture later tonight.

Thanks again!

Untitled.jpg
 
thanks DeeAnna. I guess I am still learning :) - which is great!!! From what I have seen online I was under assumption that Castile soap takes a long time to cure --- which I guess it may not be the case.....

I will try to do some homework regarding using lye concentration instead of water as percent of oil weight..thanks for the tip!

I also agree that I need to adjust my schedule....maybe I should just make it in the afternoon and then cut it in the morning....
 
I want my Castile to gel so I use 31% lye concentration.
Adding 5% castor oil wont hurt you DHs skin.
I wouldn’t use SL if your wife has eczema. Use 1 tsp salt ppo instead.
Are you using fragrance? Are you using pure OO?
You must be heating your oil to get to 115*F which is a good thing to avoid stearic spots but are you using a thermometer to check that?
Usually when mine has crumbled it’s been because it overheated because I’d used a heat mat on too high or put it in an esky.
I’d put the mold in a cardboard box and wrap the soap in a blanket to ensure gel but not too hot and cut at 18 - 24 hours.

Castile takes 12 months cure time to make it last in the shower and 18 months-2years to reach full potential.
 
thanks DeeAnna. I guess I am still learning :) - which is great!!! From what I have seen online I was under assumption that Castile soap takes a long time to cure --- which I guess it may not be the case.....

I will try to do some homework regarding using lye concentration instead of water as percent of oil weight..thanks for the tip!

I also agree that I need to adjust my schedule....maybe I should just make it in the afternoon and then cut it in the morning....

It does take a long time to cure. 12 month, more for me to even like it. Cure is totally different than saponified and ready to cut. I make a soap that I have to cut at 3-4 hours or it's not cutting. Cutting time will vary depending on lye concentration, what oils are used, additives etc.
 
"...It is so strange that I am having this issue with just Castile soap..."

Why should this be so strange? Olive oil soap (high in oleic acid) is different than coconut oil soap (high in lauric and myristic acids). And both are different from soap made with a blend of fats (more stearic and palmitic acids).

It's like comparing classical music with rock. They're both forms of musical expression, so should we expect them to be similar or different? ;)

What the others are saying about cure vs. saponification. Done saponifying and firm enough to unmold is just the start. The cure period starts at that point and goes on for some weeks or months.
 
Thanks all for your replies. Seriously I appreciate that a lot and I didn't expect I would receive so many replies in such a short period of time.

Just to answer some of the questions:
- do not use any flagrance, there were batches where I have used just the lavender oil.
- thanks for the tip, penelopejane, I will keep that in mind regarding salt and SL.
- and I apologize everybody - when I said "Curing" it meant hardening in the mold.
 
Thanks all for your replies. Seriously I appreciate that a lot and I didn't expect I would receive so many replies in such a short period of time.

Just to answer some of the questions:
- do not use any flagrance, there were batches where I have used just the lavender oil.

If I were you I’d use only fragrance free soap for your DW. Eczema doesn’t like fragrance whether it’s FO or EO.
 
Welcome, Lucas!

I just typed your recipe into SoapCalc and the only thing I see problematic is that you are using a "full water" amount with your 100% olive oil soap. A '33%' water amount is great for this kind of soap, but not when the water amount is based on a "water as % of oils" ratio (as yours shows to be). Using a 33% 'lye concentration' instead (aka water as a % of the lye amount) would be excellent for this recipe.

Without going into too much detail, there are 2 different ways to calculate water amount for one's batches on SoapCalc (which I assume you are using as your calculator since it's the only one I know of that offers the option to calculate water as a % of the oils amount): 1) water as % of oils amount, and 2) lye concentration, which is water calculated as % of the lye amount.

I love SoapCalc (it's my go-to lye calculator), but I sure wish they would eliminate that troublesome 'water as % of oils' button for figuring out your water amount and just have only the lye concentration box instead. Having both on their calculator as they do causes a lot of confusion to newbies and old timers alike. Not only that, figuring water based on oils also causes inconsistent results from formula to formula compared to figuring water based on lye concentration. We have several thread that talk about such things. Here is one of them: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642

Anyway, I find that using a 33% water to lye concentration (as opposed to a full water amount) works so much better with high olive oil soaps, especially with a 100% olive oil soap. For what it's worth, a 33% lye concentration is equal to using a 26.13 "water as amount of oils" percentage for your particular formula/batch.

Using a full water in a 100% olive oil soap such as you have, I've found, makes for a delicate soap (at least at the beginning) that is darn near impossible to unmold and cut gracefully unless one waits a few days or more before attempting to unmold and cut. The first and last time I ever made a 100% olive oil batch with a full water amount, it was impossible to unmold and cut for up to a whole week (too soft and apt to dent/crumble), but after a week it finally firmed up enough to cut decently. Since then (based on the experiences/advice of those who had gone before me), whenever I make a 100% olive oil soap, I always make sure not to use a full water amount. I personally like to use either a 33% lye concentration or a 40% lye concentration (depending on the fragrance oil I'm using)and all goes quite well. I am able to unmold and cut within 12 to 18 hours without any issues.

Ditto what the good Gent said- don't confuse hardening in the mold with curing- they are 2 very different things in regards to soap. Curing does not begin until after a soap has been unmolded and cut.

Edited to add- sorry if any one my response seems to be repeating what others have said- I hit send before noticing how many folks had already replied. Boy you guys are quick on the draw! :)


IrishLass :)
 
"... I sure wish they would eliminate that troublesome 'water as % of oils' button for figuring out your water amount and just have only the lye concentration box instead...."

Hear, hear! A most excellent suggestion!!!
 
My castille is like that too - which is one reason I like to use cavity molds for it. But each batch will have its own sweetspot for cutting - just like DeeAnnas cheese example. You cut when the soap is ready or suffer the crumblies or the gooeys :mrgreen:
 
I'm really glad to hear this! Good job, Lucas.

The darker portion surrounded by an arc of lighter soap is the result of a partial gel. That means the main portion of the soap got warm enough during saponification to turn into soap's version of a liquid (aka gel). The lighter top portion didn't quite get that warm, so it stayed a solid during saponification.

If you want a more consistent look to the soap, try covering the top of the mold with a towel or other light covering to keep the soap a bit warmer. That may encourage the top to gel too. You'll have to experiment to see what works best.
 
I think your right

Hello,

My wife is having eczema and I have been making her CP soap for a while already (it seems that she is improving which is great!). We do really like the soap and our friends always ask us for extras :). I have already made a number of batches (more than 15 I think :)) and never had an issue except for the Castile soap. Please find the recipe below:


Water: 299 grams (33%)
Lye: 117 grams
Oil: 907 grams
Superfat: 5%
Soaping at 115 F


It seems that I cannot let it cure for more than 16 hours. If I let it go for 24 hours or more it is very crumbly when I cut it. I tried different oil brands but I always have the same results. For example, yesterday I made a new batch at 11 AM. I let it cure for about 20 hours and when I cut it, the soap crumbled just a bit. It is usable but I want to make sure I am not doing anything wrong. I have noticed that the soap does not gel.


I am considering the following:
- Always cut soap at 16 hour mark.
- Adding a bit of sugar or 5% of castor oil just to kick start the gel phase.
- Adding some sodium lactate so I can start cutting at 12 hour mark.
- Adding more water (38 %) so I can let it go for about 24 hours and cut it as soon as I can.


Let me know if you find anything suspicious or strange.
Thanks!

I ran the math and I believe your lye amount is about right! So, the only thing that is left is soda ash from too much water. I believe that is what your seeing.
The math on that would be (1-.05)*(.135 * oliveAmount)=116.31 grams of lye. But even that small difference plays a small part but I mostly think your experiencing alot of soda ash? That is my guess but I could be wrong as usual.
 
Eczema doesn’t like fragrance whether it’s FO or EO.
I happen to have severe eczema and fragrance does not bother me at all, but some EO's do. It is all trial and error with allergies.

A 100% Avocado oil or 90/5% Avocado/castor makes a very nice gentle soap. But then I am one that hates OO in soap but I do make it and sell it after aging for min of a year
 
I happen to have severe eczema and fragrance does not bother me at all, but some EO's do. It is all trial and error with allergies.

A 100% Avocado oil or 90/5% Avocado/castor makes a very nice gentle soap. But then I am one that hates OO in soap but I do make it and sell it after aging for min of a year

Yes you are right. Eczema is different for everyone.
So OP maybe determine if your wife can tolerate FOs or EOs first.
 

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