help me scientifically respond to the "soap is bad for skin pH" claim

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autumngirl27

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Hi everyone! I'm new here, but I've been lurking for years and selfishly absorbing everyone's wisdom. And now I selfishly need your direct help (but I imagine this will be helpful to many of us, so please hang in there during my long story)...

A person recently approached me with the claim that the skin's acid mantle is between a 4.5 pH and a 6 pH, and that any skin product outside that range would irreparably damage the acid mantle and make the pH spike before settling again, leaving the skin not only dry and acne-riddled but also a hot-bed of bacteria. She said I was "irresponsible" for making and selling soap and that suggesting that people use it was "bad advice." She cited medical papers about skin pH (which, honestly, ARE legit) (see for example "The Concept of the Acid Mantle of the Skin") (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8573921) and demanded that I provide "good science" to the contrary. When I told her my experience with CP soap and what I've heard from many other people, she laughed me off because my evidence was "simply anecdotal."

My blood has been boiling for over 24 hours now. I hit the internet to see what was up with this, and there is turning out to be a GROWING community jumping on the acidic skin bandwagon and bad-mouthing soap.

So I came here. I've clicked around and found a few discussion threads (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=8928) (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=25802) about soap allegedly being damaging to the skin simply because of its alkalinity. We here all pretty much agree that pH isn't the end-all-be-all, superfatting is important, the oils you use make a difference, etc.

BUT we need something good to have at the ready for these hard-and-fast pH people, because although their science sounds "right," something about this smacks of marketing to me, and I can't discount our positive experiences with CP soap.

Thus far, this is all I have found: "The Long-Term Use of Soap Does Not Affect the pH-Maintenance Mechanism of the Human Skin" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25073884)

So (long story short! too late!), does anyone have any cites to fancy-sounding science-y sources explaining our awesome experiences with our soaps and why we would use them over syndets? Estheticians out there -- what do your books and continuing education classes say? Any cosmetic scientists lurking about?

Thank you in advance! I've loved lurking here for so many years, and I hope to become active in the community.
 
I do not have the answer you are looking for, but want to offer my opinion. (Beside the fact that better-than-thou people like this are pure jerks!) If I were you, I'd take the one good source you have found, LOAD UP on scientific studies about the ill effect syndets are having not only on our bodies but on our environment, and throw the irresponsibility back in her face.

She obviously enjoyed upsetting you by blindsiding you with this "information." She doesn't really care about the facts. But being well-armed will at least shut her up...or any more like her.

ETA: Perhaps throwing it back in her face is not the most diplomatic thing to do. Rather present both sides and say "you must make your own choice as you see fit."
 
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Have you read the article/s in their entirety?
I ask because the abstract is not enough to draw conclusions from - yet I see many doing so over the Internet. (In fact one blog stated a "fact" and cited an article, which they linked to... But they had entirely misinterpreted the article...)
Currently I've only read the abstract of the first article which does not draw any conclusions about the issue - I'll try to read it fully tomorrow.
In the meantime, I am confused about her claim that (a) the acid mantle is IRREPABLY damaged and (b) the pH would settle again.
If it's irrepably damaged then HOW does the pH then settle?

Or you could just smile politely and say "thanks for bringing this to my attention. Obviously my skin is fine, but I would be happy to peruse the articles you mention. Can I have your contact details so we can continue this conversation?"
Then you can email her articles you find supporting your claims... If you want to... (Probably not worth the hassle haha).
 
While reading some of the abstracts referencing the subject matter, I came across this:
Effects of soap and detergents on skin surface pH, stratum corneum hydration and fat content in infants.

Gfatter R1, Hackl P, Braun F.
Author information

  • 1Department of Pediatrics, University of Vienna, School of Medicine, Austria.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

In adults the influence of cleansing preparations on the pH, fat content and hydration of the skin is well documented. Studies in newborn and small infants have not been reported.
OBJECTIVE:

Our study aimed at examining whether similar effects can be ascertained in infants.
METHODS:

Infants without skin disease, aged 2 weeks to 16 months, entered an open, controlled and randomized study. Ten infants each had skin washed with tap water (control group), liquid detergent (pH 5.5), compact detergent (pH 5.5) or alkaline soap (pH 9.5). The pH, fat content and hydration were measured before and 10 min after cleansing. Findings were statistically evaluated by parametric covariance analysis.
RESULTS:

The skin pH increased from an average of 6.60 after cleansing in all groups. The smallest increase (+0.19) was observed in the control group, the largest (+0.45) after washing with alkaline soap. After treatment with liquid or compact detergent, the increase of the pH was only 0.09 higher than for the control group. In comparison to the compact and liquid detergents, the alkaline soap group had a significantly higher increase in pH. The fat content (mean starting value: 4.34 micrograms/cm2) decreased after washing in all groups; the smallest effect was observed in the control group (decrease of 0.93 micrograms/cm2), the highest for the alkaline soap group (decrease of 4.81 micrograms/cm2). In comparison to the compact and liquid detergents, the alkaline soap group had a higher decrease in fat content. This difference was significant for compact detergents. No statistically significant differences were observed for hydration before versus after washing.
CONCLUSION:

Each cleansing agent, even normal tap water, influences the skin surface. The increase of the skin pH irritates the physiological protective 'acid mantle', changes the composition of the cutaneous bacterial flora and the activity of enzymes in the upper epidermis, which have an acid pH optimum. The dissolution of fat from the skin surface may influence the hydration status

So I guess my response to your detractor would be for the minute difference in pH change, would you rather be clean or walk around with unnecessary microorganisms on your body? BTW - still looking but can't find any studies referencing "irreparable damage to the skin's acid mantle". As we naturally exfoliate our dermis layers every 28-45 days, this claim makes no sense to me.

However it is always helpful to research topics like this to be prepared.
 
Thanks for sharing all this information. I'm sorry you had someone who tried to make you feel bad. I would just let it go and don't let it bother you. We all know that handmade soap is better for adults (I don't recommend for children under 2, my preference). Some people may have issues but I've not yet run across any. Keep doing what you are doing with your head held high.
 
Considering that soap has been used for centuries to clean the body, and widespread use of syndets dates to post WW2, I'd say long-term empirical evidence suggests soap is relatively harmless. Certainly any cleanser including plain water can be an irritant to skin for some people some of the time. But that doesn't mean a given cleanser is bad for all people all of the time.
 
Everyone, you've been amazing! All this support has put some sort of dust in my eye that is making this watery substance to come out. I guess I didn't realize how very much this person threw me off my game and made me question everything. And you've all come up with really amazing points and approaches to responding to this kind of person. Thank you! <3 <3 <3
 
Bosh, in a word. Our skin is exposed to the environment. That's its job, to protect our internals from dirt, bacteria, and other stuff.

Just the most basic logic will indicate that your skin has evolved to handle a pretty wide and harsh range of exposures, from simple water to soil (acid, neutral, or alkaline depending on your locale--but always highly abrasive) to dropping lunch on yourself.

Bathing daily, in and of itself, is not a natural act. It's also not one I'm going to give up regardless of the circumstances. My acid mantle can durned well adjust, or regenerate when my skin does.
 
Wow...the strength of your reaction to her makes me think the others are onto something when they say she was trying to upset you. (She could possibly be a frustrated wannabe soap maker who was too afraid of lye to ever make her first batch!)

How should you respond to people like this? Sometimes its best to just take your ball and go home. In other words....don't. Smile and nod. Ignore.

Or, you could talk about people like me, who have allergies to syndets. (Good grief....Dawn dishwashing soap terrifies me! One touch of a sponge with Dawn water and I'm in for 6 weeks of rash, blisters and itching! And that's after I rinse my hand with running water for 10 minutes) Some syndets just irritate my skin. Either way....it damages my skin to the point where it can set me up for infection. I just spend one scary month on antibiotics for a skin infection that didn't want to get better and was worried about being hospitalized (okay, that was worse case scenario, but possible enough for the Doctor to double up on the meds)

Also, my daily life requires the use of soap because I get dirty; I'm a child care professional. We spend a lot of time outside gardening, looking for bugs and critters, pretty rocks, playing. I don't have anyone in diapers, but....need I say more? I need soap to wash the dirt, mud and peanut butter off.

The pH of our skin returns to normal in a few hours after using soap. (this info comes from many educated sources, including a dermatologist and my pharmacist friend)

Good luck with whatever approach you decide to use!
 
Wow...the strength of your reaction to her makes me think the others are onto something when they say she was trying to upset you.

Exactly. I have several words for these kinds of people, but none of them are acceptable for usage in polite company. And this forum is, most definitely, polite company.

In this case, I detect a very unhappy person who's trying to spread it around as much as possible. Removing yourself from their presence so quickly you leave a sonic boom is the only way to constructively deal with them.

I mean, honestly. I'm a stickler about soil chemistry. I frequently have my hands in dense solutions of borax (moderately alkaline) to iron sulfate (very acidic). Damage, none. And then I get them all over myself while treating the soil, to the point that I stink of iron when finished with that.

Your natural bacteria aren't thrilled by a pH in either direction, so that pH 3.5 iron solution I just soaked myself with is doing as much damage as a pH 9.5 soap. If not more as it's not immediately rinsed off and may sit on my skin and hair for hours before I'm finished.

So far, I have not been sent to a colony for lepers or people covered in boils.

Sorry if that sounds testy, but I'm ticked off for AutumnGirl27 and the fact that she had to put up with that...stuff.
 
You guys are SO right about the sourness of this person I encountered. You should have heard her accuse me of "putting words in her mouth" when I said that if a person is only concerned with pH, then swimming in the ocean (8.1 pH) would be disastrous to our whole bodies.

I think a great approach to have in my tool belt is what some of you suggested - having information about drawbacks of syndets and presenting true soap as an alternative for people who had syndet issues.

And then, because I'm procrastinating at work, I think I may have just found something helpful: an article in Dermatology Times written by Zoe Diana Draelos, M.D., a consulting professor of dermatology, Duke University School of Medicine, in April 2011:

Q: Are pH-balanced skincare products better?

A: The concept of pH-balanced products was introduced many years ago as an effective marketing strategy for soaps and moisturizers. pH-balanced is a consumer-friendly term for "neutral" pH. These products are usually formulated around a pH of 5 to 5.5. The idea is that neutral pH products will not cause stinging or burning when applied to sensitive, diseased or injured skin. There is some merit to this concept, and highly alkaline or highly acidic products will damage the skin barrier and are not appropriate for daily use. Many times, ascorbic acid is added to pH-balance an alkaline formulation, not for any other direct skin benefit.


A relatively new concept in U.S. skincare is the idea that slightly acidic skincare products are better than neutral products in maintaining the acid mantle of the skin. Keeping the skin at a slightly acidic pH can minimize bacterial colonization of the skin by normal organisms, such as Staphylococcus epidermidis, and pathogenic organisms, such as Staphylococcus aureus. To accomplish this, products are formulated at a pH of 4. Some skin diseases are thought be triggered or worsened by bacterial colonization, and slight acidification of the skin may be beneficial.

It is important to remember that healthy skin will regain its acid mantle within 15 to 30 minutes after application of a skincare product, depending on pH. Retaining the acid mantel is only problematic in compromised barrier conditions. Thus, products that are pH-balanced may offer some benefit in patients with skin disease.
(http://dermatologytimes.modernmedic...ow/do-ph-balanced-vitamin-d-products-really-i)
 
Another response is to be over the top dramatic... Could be totally unexpected.
Eg "how DARE you? To come over here and accuse me of causing harm, which is just PURE LIES! Who DO you think you are and what right have you to insult me..." Blah blah blah. Just go into a 5 minute rant to put her in her place.
Not for the introverted... Totally steam roll them. It may, however, give them the satisfaction of thinking they got to you, but if you can include things like "numerous studies show the ph and skin flora return to normal within a few hours" and "studies on patients in intensive care - one of the most vulnerable groups showed xxx" and finish off with how petty and little it is of this person to take such obvious glee in spreading lies and upsetting hard working, well meaning small business owners/crafts people such as yourself...

Well, I would like to see this take place. Hehe.
(Yes, I too am ticked off for you.)
 
She said I was "irresponsible" for making and selling soap and that suggesting that people use it was "bad advice."

Well bless her heart.


And thanks everyone for posting the papers ... I'd hate to be one of those *@4!'s who only have anecdotal evidence to support their "facts".
 
Another response is to be over the top dramatic... Could be totally unexpected.
Eg "how DARE you? To come over here and accuse me of causing harm, which is just PURE LIES! Who DO you think you are and what right have you to insult me..." Blah blah blah. Just go into a 5 minute rant to put her in her place.
Not for the introverted... Totally steam roll them. It may, however, give them the satisfaction of thinking they got to you, but if you can include things like "numerous studies show the ph and skin flora return to normal within a few hours" and "studies on patients in intensive care - one of the most vulnerable groups showed xxx" and finish off with how petty and little it is of this person to take such obvious glee in spreading lies and upsetting hard working, well meaning small business owners/crafts people such as yourself...

Well, I would like to see this take place. Hehe.
(Yes, I too am ticked off for you.)

You're mean and I appreciate and enjoy that. Come over here and sit by me.
 
I wonder what SHE does for a living or hobby? I wonder how she would feel if somebody called her irresponsible for following her passion and making something wonderfully wholesome and luxurious? You can usually find a study to support both sides of an argument. I'm a nurse, and I know that 'anecdotal' evidence is the least credible but I completely believe there is something to be said for experience. There is wisdom in years of experience observing repeated outcomes and passing that information along. I've read studies discounting some of the techniques used by myself and other nurses I work with that I KNOW work! And I will continue to use them because I have enough experience and repeated good outcomes for my patients that I know they work, like I know the sky is blue! One cranky nurse even brought this study to me on my lunch and shoved it in my face! I told her that I don't care what that paper says, I will do what I feel is best for my patients and I know what works. And I have the track record to prove it!
Is handmade soap for everyone? I guess not. Is it good for many? Hell yes! I wash my hands (what feels like) a million times a day and until I started to make my own soap my hands were cracked and bleeding from the hospital grade syndets and alcohol based gel cleansers we use, as well as those I was using at home. I have a friend whose hands were so dry and cracked they looked like alligator skin! Her skin is now intact. She claims it's because she uses my soap. And when she runs out and uses syndets, boom, alligator skin! I have a family member who has a skin disorder that is characterized by extreme dryness and she will only use handmade soap because that's what works for her. Not scientifically proven, but good enough for me! Aaaaannndd....rant over!
ETA- also, I'm sure that you started making soap just so you could destroy the acid mantle of everyone you hand a bar to with your irresponsible use of oils and superfatting! What are people thinking?!
 
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Heh, I'd just remind her that when the SHTF, and there is no longer any 'commercial' soap..she can just stay dirty and smelly, while you completely immerse yourself in your luxurious bubbly acid mantle removing 'real' soap. :lol:

ETA: Of course Im sure there is an article out there 'somewhere' that states that using commercial soaps {surfactants} can cause the body to be more prone to body odor...if that were possible to find, then Id lean close and sniff, say "you stink" and then walk away.....yes, Im evil like that :twisted:
 
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