Respect, Diversity, & Potential Shifts in Forum Behavior

The tone of the "This is me...connecting our names" thread may have negatively changed from its original warm and inviting nature, and since I was partly responsible for that change, I would like to address it. I am not looking to start a debate or split people apart, and instead truly want to promote respect for diversity.

The thread I reference is at
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46257
and my post is #105 (at http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=482854#post482854)

The purpose of the original thread was about getting to know each other. Issue was taken with my pointing out how I am different from almost everyone else, which I did in an attempt to acknowledge and support someone else who bravely revealed her own difference from societal norm, which I presumed to be in attempt to share an integral part of herself with us, to find commonalities with others on this great forum, and possibly to promote safety for those who might be fearful of exposing a core part of themselves.

I can't actually tell whether the issue was directed solely at me, or also to the post I was responding to. So for this discussion, I will focus only on my own topic, which was a lack of theism (i.e., disbelief in any god; being an atheist). The response to my post was, leave anything with "ism" or "ist" out of the forum in order to remain polite and not evoke intolerance.

I am confident that I was not disrespectful or intolerant in my post, and I also specifically chose words that would not imply anyone else should abandon their beliefs. Further, I did not counter any of the forum's rules, which near as I can tell are disclosed at http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13 and
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=2770

Therefore, I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I was prodded to refrain from any discussion that might lead to religious debate. We all know that religion/spirituality is something that people tend to feel very strongly about, and is highly personal and individualistic; therefore, it is easy to evoke debate, antagonism, or righteousness, any of which can lead to the appearance of intolerance, impoliteness, or disrespect. It is unlikely that anyone comes on a soap forum to be preached to, singled out, or argued with, so it could harm our community in the long run.

I can support the nudge to refrain from religious reference, and request that others do it too. So far I have noticed no pushback on anyone sharing aspects of their religious/core beliefs (other than the impetus for this thread), so I think there has been a tolerance so far. But we have learned through other posts that our forum community is very diverse, and that we value that diversity (for example see http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=50649).

Please state your thoughts about this potential shift, in the respectful manner that we expect and are accustomed to. It seems like this shift would be slight, as our "typical" conversations do not include any reference to theism. Potential downsides could be that we become less personal and perhaps not overtly supporting diversity.

Thanks in advance for your participation.

-Cara

Personally, I don't think a hobbyist forum is the correct place to discuss sexuality or religion. Both hot topics that can push peoples buttons way too easy. I also don't feel either subjects are necessary to "get to know" someone in a casual manner over the net. Of course it would be different if a personal relationship is growing but some things are better left for PM's.

Obsidian said:

Personally, I don't think a hobbyist forum is the correct place to discuss sexuality or religion.

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It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.

I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.

That is a good point about assumptions but I guess I am not focused on race, religious belief, sexual orientation etc in this forum or any. It's all about the soap......and the lotion and bath salts and how you run your business.

PinkCupcake said:

It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.

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Agreed, 100%, and the same is true for religion through very frequent reference to god, Jesus and praying.

PinkCupcake said:

I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.

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Agreed again, especially when it is totally acceptable for other people to freely announce their values when they fit within the norm. Note here no one is harming any other person; that I wouldn't agree with.

Aline said:

That is a good point about assumptions but I guess I am not focused on race, religious belief, sexual orientation etc in a forum like this. It's all about the soap......and the lotion and bath salts and how you run your business.

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Just a reminder that all of these threads have been in the General Chat forum, which is wide open and does not have to be related to soap. However, I have seen reference to religion in threads outside of the General Chat.

Carabou and Cupcake, I for one, certainly took no offense in your statements about religion and sexuality. I would take offense only if someone tried to express an opinion that their life choices were the the "correct" ones, and that everyone else who doesn't think likewise is somehow missing the point....and wrong. Being that the discussion occurred in the General Chat forum, a place to "Discuss the weather, reality television or anything else that's on your mind. This is the place for all your off topic conversations.",I don't find it inappropriate in the least. If anyone felt offended by the topic, all they had to do was make the decision not to read the posts there. I have no problem with people's diversity. What I have a problem with is people who are mean and judgemental. I've been a member in other forums where that kind of behavior was allowed. Now, that I take offense with. I haven't encountered that here, and it's a breath of fresh air. So as far as I'm concerned, discuss away, as long as it's with respect for other people's differences. I love the incredible diversity in this forum, and I embrace it. I think half of the world's problems come from an "us" and "them" mentality. We're so much more alike than we are different!

PinkCupcake said:

It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.

I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.

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I didn't read your original post pinkcupcake so this isn't directed to you. I don't know how your orientation came to be mentioned, this is just generalization on how I've seen the subject brought up on other forums.

Its one thing to post a picture with your spouse, regardless of orientation, its something different to announce it like its important.
I really don't care about a persons sexual orientation or religious beliefs, if I did I would ask.
I also believe that any subject that creates strong feels and can cause a lot of hurtful comments just doesn't belong here.

This is a bit of a sore subject for me, not due to anything thats been said here or because of anyone beliefs. I go to another site where tolarance is shoved in your face but when I asked for the same acceptance, I was made fun of.

I'm just glad people here can discus touchy subjects and remain adult about it even when disagreeing.

I agree with Navigator. As long as I'm not being told my ways are wrong and someone else's are right or someone isn't being vulgar (and even then I'd just ignore anyway) I say chat away. Online forums are not a place for thin skinned people. Read what you like, ignore what you don't. The end.

I don't care who you sleep with, who you worship (or don't), or who you voted for. I am here for soap.

I agree with Ann ("I don't care who you sleep with, who you worship (or don't), or who you voted for. I am here for soap.") <Sorry my quote button is gone>.

And to take it one step further, I don't want to hear about it, either. Not here. There are plenty of other places to expound, complain, get pretentious, rant, push, USE ALL CAPS, etc. Once you put that stuff out, people will judge you.

navigator9 said:

Carabou and Cupcake, I for one, certainly took no offense in your statements about religion and sexuality. I would take offense only if someone tried to express an opinion that their life choices were the the "correct" ones, and that everyone else who doesn't think likewise is somehow missing the point....and wrong. Being that the discussion occurred in the General Chat forum, a place to "Discuss the weather, reality television or anything else that's on your mind. This is the place for all your off topic conversations.",I don't find it inappropriate in the least. If anyone felt offended by the topic, all they had to do was make the decision not to read the posts there. I have no problem with people's diversity. What I have a problem with is people who are mean and judgemental. I've been a member in other forums where that kind of behavior was allowed. Now, that I take offense with. I haven't encountered that here, and it's a breath of fresh air. So as far as I'm concerned, discuss away, as long as it's with respect for other people's differences. I love the incredible diversity in this forum, and I embrace it. I think half of the world's problems come from an "us" and "them" mentality. We're so much more alike than we are different!

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I agree with this.

Also, I think we need to remember that even as anonymous as the internet can be, our personality will (and probably should) leak out unintentionally. This is, after all, a social interaction. Yes, all interactions should have limits, but we are human, and there will be problems. Does that mean we establish strict limits on topics that are acceptable? Or do we establish a method to address perceived violations?

I like Carabou's method....starting a discussion where the members are free to speak and set a standard for the forum together. We'll see.

I thoroughly enjoy learning about each person on the forum....I like the personal touch. Casually hearing a person's religious, political or sexual preferences on this forum doesn't bother me, whether I agree with it or not. Having mine challenged, or having their beliefs shoved down my throat in an effort to change mine, is a different matter.

(Glad I'm not a moderator though)

I did not read anything in that thread that I consider inappropriate within the context of the thread. It is about "meeting" one another. I do, however, have very firm opinions about tolerance and respect.

I think that we should tolerate and respect that other people have lifestyles and beliefs that we do not share. This, to me, means that you are free to post your opinions/lifestyle information without reprisal in the proper forum(s). It also means you are free to NOT post them there. If someone does not approve of someone else's opinions/lifestyles, they are NOT free to say ugly things(they can think anything they like, as long as they don't post it). If someone crosses a line, the mods are there to handle it.(Thank goodness for them, and thank goodness it is not me.)

I am with Susie. I didn't find anything offensive in anyone's post on that thread actually. It doesn't bother me if someone shares a religious or non religious belief or a different choice than mine, as long as I am given the same respect.

As Carabou wrote before, I believe in treating others how you want to be treated.

I just went back and glanced through that thread, and I saw nothing inappropriate or offensive.

I think references to who you are, your spouse, your family, etc. are perfectly acceptable to whatever level makes the poster comfortable.

I think it is not only possible but should be a requirement to be able to discuss things politely. And if you can't, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

I also think that while people are free to share whatever they wish about themselves, no one is permitted to tell anyone else how they should think or feel or believe or behave. That applies to every day in every situation with everyone, in real life as well as on the internet.

My thoughts on the matter -

If I can post a picture of my wife and I with the caption 'here is my wife and I' in a thread where we want to learn a bit more about each other, then so can anyone else in a legally recognized union (to use the word wife). If I could post there saying 'this is me at my church' then someone can post an image 'this is me dancing around a fire like a pixie princess'.

Mentions about gender, sexuality and faith come up in normal use more often than we think. Mention that your wife loves your freshly shaven face but your son thinks a few days growth is better? You've mentioned gender and sexuality right there.

It's okay - it happens.

However, if people started to randomly post about their sexuality or faith all over the forum then that is a different matter altogether - it is a soaping forum and even the general chat needs to stay within the thread aims. I see nothing wrong with what has happened so far there, though.

Everyone of us is different in one way or another. I don't think any of us should have to hide who we are or how we are different. If a person is comfortable with who they are they should not feel the need to hide it because someone else might be offended - it is who the are. If someone is offended by who someone else is, in my personal opinion, it is their problem. No one should ever have to hide a part of themselves.

I'm with Susie and Navigator... I took no offense and enjoyed the thread getting to know people here a little more. I think religion, sexuality, politics and what not are such a deep part of us it can be hard to hold back. I also would rather people feel comfortable enough to share that than feel like they have to hide it. As long as things stay civil enough and without hatred. I'd love to see our real selves shine through.

PinkCupcake said:

It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.

I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.

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FTR, I saw nothing I found upsetting in the original thread. Did somebody recieve angry PMs? I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see any comments that seemed upset in the original thread.

I think there is a difference between DISCUSSING something and just MENTIONING it. For example, "I want to make soaps for gifts for XYZ religious holiday" is different than, "Here is what I believe and why." Or, "My best friend and her girlfriend just got engaged, and I want to make special soaps for their wedding," and "Here is what I believe about human sexuality and why." I think discussions on any non-soap topic should be on the General Discussion forum. Which they seem to be, so I don't see a problem.

My opinion is that sexual orientation & religion are a matter of private and personal choice. Racial heritage is something to be proud of ( I am a Missouri Redneck). However, I do not think that this forum is the place to discuss these topics. We are a friendly soap/bath & body, topic forum. Let's keep it this way. I am sure that there are plenty of forums for discussion of these other topics.

As someone new to forums, this being my first, I read through entire thread. I found it wonderful to see all the faces that were shared behind the soaps I found nothing offensive. I had a poster in my house when my kids were little entitled "everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten"
Basically, be kind and gentle with you words. Respect one another. Treat each other as you wish to be treated. I personally don't care who you love, who you marry, or who you pray to. I care that on this forum, you're kind, respectful, help me with my soaping problems.