Vinegar soap?

Hey everybody, this is my first post here and this is a great message board all of you have put together. I'm doing a bit of research on homemade and all natural soaps, what originally caught my eye and got me interested in this was a little article I found. Apparently a bunch of "players" on some message board have been only using vinegar solutions as their soap and shampoo. They don't use any lye and they use a liquid solution. You guys know much more about soap than I do, I was just wondering if vinegar works like these guys say it does; because if so it seems like a highly efficient way of doing things. I made an entry about it in my All Natural Soap blog, where I plan on tracking the things I learn about all natural soap and soapmaking and such. If you guys could look into it and let me know I'd very much appreciate it.
http://allnaturalsoap.brighterplanet.org/

Thanks very much, Andy

Hmm Andy I don't know what to say to you. I am flabbergasted. :shock: :shock: :shock:

To the best of my knowledge, Andy, vinegar solutions are not used as soaps but as a rinses for the hair (to remove soap build up) and as facial toners.

Are they talking about commercial soap or home made soap? Vinegar to me is a rinse. I would think that using vinegar all the time would be very drying.

TheGardener: They are ditching their commercial soap and are moving to use a home made soap, the homemade soap they are using is a vinegar solution.

cdwinsby: I've heard of people using citrus juices as facial toners, isn't this because they are slightly acidic? Vinegar is also just slightly acidic. I think the whole point of their process only work with the belief that vinegar is acidic to kill things but not acidic enough to harm you (like most commercial soaps). Is there any truth to vinegar being acidic enough but not too acidic?

I've actually been lightly experimenting with their process, and I've noticed that my skin has been soft and clean but it has also been pretty dry. I know that olive oil is natural moisturizer so I've mixing that in with my solution (however since the oil is so undense it rises to the top, so I have to swirl my spray bottle every time before I spray), and it has worked a bit better.
I'm thinking about making olive oil the primary ingredient in my spray, but I know little about olive oil. What exactly is it about olive oil that makes it so essential in all sorts of natural soaps?

Anyways in my shower this morning I did a little experiment, I gave my left arm much more attention with my spray than my right, so I'll be able to compare the different feelings and I'll post back here later tonight.

!AndY!

I've heard of people doing the 6 weeks no shampoo challenge. The theory is that the chemicals in commercial shampoo actually make you need to wash your hair more often, So you just rinse your hair with water and by the end of the 6 weeks it will be lovely. I've never tried it myself, but when your hair gets too disgusting you rinse it with vinegar.
http://noshampoo.org/2007/03/01/the-ben ... noshampoo/

Andy,

Technically they aren't making a homemade soap since 'soap' by definition is a mixture of lye and oil.

They are pretty much just replacing any soap or body wash with a vinegar solution.

Kind of gave me the hebbe jeebes when I read this part:

"You will sometimes feel a burning sensation around nails, anus and penis head, but if you’re below 4% it’s perfectly safe." :shock:

I'm afraid that puts me off right there. And then I read the original post...slightly offensive actually (personal opinion). Authors user name is "Pussydriven". hmmm. :roll:

Please don't take offence but I think I'll stick to my handmade soaps. I hope it works out for you though.

While I agree that their message board, etiquette, and overall message is offensive, I think that maybe they're on to something when it comes to soap, what exactly would be a proper term for what they're doing rather than saying vinegar solution over and over again? I've been using the word soap because what they are making seeks to serve the same purpose as soap.
I was very intrigued I even did research and eventually found this site (great site by the way), I'm just wondering if their claims have any merit and could positively influence some form of soap making, or other forms of body wash.

Andy

"acid wash"?

absolutely not soap

can it cleanse? suppose so - it's mostly water after all.

I also found some of the quotes offensive.

It works. I know many people who wash up with a vinegar solution. I do about every three days or so. Plastic surgeons have been doing similiar for a long time with worse.

Vinegar removes soap scum from the tub with ease.

I use a spray bottle. Hop in turn shower on. Wash with just water. Turn off shower and get spray bottle. Vinegar every part of me. Scrub some. Turn shower on and rinse. Skin comes out very soft, blackheads no more, zits no more, dadruff gone, and so on.

There is no burning unless you got a solution to high in vinegar. Avoid eyes though it will not blind you but it will sting. Open wounds, scabs, and such do get a bit of stinging but never had an issue of vinegar effecting the healing process.

Edit- When I first tried this... I washed everyday for a few months with just vinegar and water. It did not dry my skin. I was doing experimentation and at first had too strong of a solution and did get a red face. I worked this out and since no other issues.

Vinegar is wonderful for cleaning lots of things... just not me. I love my soaps too much. And I agree... vinegar is NOT soap.

I didn't read the message board because I think anyone who tried home made soap would never be happy with plain old vinegar. But hey... whatever hoists your sail.

I agree that the vinegar solution very likely works well and certainly better than commercial soaps (can't use any of them!). However I love my handmade superfatted soap and have no issues with dry skin, blackheads, pimples, dandruff, stinging, itching, burning or body odour now.

I think that perhaps each cleanser - vinegar solution and handmade soap - does a similar job, just in different ways. The vinegar cleanser is better than commercial soap and may be as good as handmade soap, but not better than IMHO. Plus my handmade soap adds a protective barrier to my skin that I do not believe the vinegar rinse can.

Tanya

Hi ASCW and Drex!

The original post of these "players" states that using soap is bad for us. This is a quote

"Soap has a pH value of far above 7 making it nearly poisonous (or at least harmful) for your skin, hair and nails. Soap makes your skin more acceptable(?) for virus (warts and more), fungi (rashes, ringworm and more) and bacteria (infections, acne and smell)."

I wouldn't mind seeing some documentation supporting these claims. Have there been clinical studies done or is this a case of opinion?

My thoughts are that washing with vinegar, while killing any bacteria, etc. while rinsing may occur, you're also stripping your body of its natural oils (protective barrier) completely without replacing it in any way. I would think this more likely to leave your body open to disease.

I personally believe the human body does things for a reason and since it's had quite some time to evolve (and survive) I tend to think that it is doing those things right. The production of oils seem to me (don't have a biology degree so this is opinion) to be a way of keeping our biggest organ functioning properly. And to the best of my knowlegde our skin's job is to protect our bodies.

As for smell....haven't had a problem with that issue. Acne....I find the more I remove oils from my face the more prone I am to acne.

Very interested in any supporting info you have since the 'culprit' in question happens to be my business, job and passion.

Thanks Guys

there is SOME science behind it - kinda. part of your skins ability to protect you and itself is the "acid mantle" which is disturbed by washing with soap. but it's also removed by washing with water. in either case it returns very quickly (tho soap delays this a tad).

but I've seen NOTHING indicating that washing with an acidified product would leave the acid mantle intact. I seriously doubt it would.

I really don't understand your statement

I personally believe the human body does things for a reason and since it's had quite some time to evolve (and survive) I tend to think that it is doing those things right. The production of oils seem to me (don't have a biology degree so this is opinion) to be a way of keeping our biggest organ functioning properly.

Click to expand...

If we follow your evolution thing a bit further it would seem that we shouldn't wash AT ALL. But that's clearly not the case. Since the advent of affordable soap, health issues have improved considerably. I don't believe our bodies have adapted (or evolved) to need soap - or even to tolerate it. I think our "technology" has allowed us to NOT need to wait for the several millions of years evolution would take...[/quote]

Sorry Carebear....guess I was having trouble expressing myself. I was merely trying to say that I feel vinegar will strip the oils from our bodies too much.

I'm afraid you've read too much into my comment about our bodies being well evolved. I do not think nor did I say they evolved to need soap...that's silly.

I don't think I said anything about any product leaving the acid mantle intact either. I did say I thought vinegar would strip the skin of it's protective layer.

If I were to rephrase the comment perhaps this would be better:
In my opinion, our skin needs some oil in order to function properly.

Thankfully most people are well aware of the need for soap and the health benefits afforded by it.

What I do know is that if I strip too much oil from my skin (especially my face), my body will overproduce in order to compensate. Products such as astringents do this to me (vinegar would likely be the same) but the handmade soap does not.

And after re-reading my previous entry I wanted to clarify this comment -"As for smell....haven't had a problem with that issue." I meant I don't smell...not that I don't mind smelling.

EDITED TO ADD: I do believe that the vinegar soap folk are full of hooey!!!

Anyway, *I* brought up the acid mantle. I was merely pointing out that there is perhaps some logic (Albeit (IMO) faulty logic) behind their statements based on my limited knowledge of skin chemistry (the acidic pH, the acid mantle, the recovery periods)...

And I was challenging THEIR theory that washing with acid was better because - from what I've read - any washing (even with plain water) removes the acid mantle, so I don't believe that washing with an acidic solution would be any better than anything else for preserving the acid mantle. It was me, all me, discussing it. Didn't mean to insinuate you had made any statements about it.

As far as stripping oils from the skin, I actually do think that soaps - as a chemical class - are more stripping, IN GENERAL, than a mild acidic solution. Why? Because the nature of soap is that it removes oils from your skin. That's what soap DOES (I don't have my soap chemistry links in front of me now) But we don't wash with 0% SF soap - we modify our formulas to make our soaps more mild by adding extra fat.

Vinegar works differently. I don't know precisely how, but I can tell you that it is NOT a surfactant (as is soap).

(and I was just confused by the evolution thing)

Sometimes I find that the written form of conversation can get soooo confusing! Sorry to have misunderstood.

carebear said:

EDITED TO ADD: I do believe that the vinegar soap folk are full of hooey!!!

Click to expand...

ITA.....vinegar is not a good cleanser for the body because oily soils (like human skin) are mildly acidic. You need an alkali to break them down. Vinegar, on the other hand is a great rinsing agent.....makes everything squeak.....I think it's the squeak that is fooling these people. They could get just as clean with a nylon poof and some warm water.

Am I a bath and body expert? Not really....however, I do have years of professional cleaning under my belt, and I do understand the basics of chemistry and what works.

Why would you post a *WAR ON SOAP* article on a handmade soap forum?:? .