I had an interesting experience lately with my soap reaching trace within less than a minute. I was using extra virgin olive oil to make some batches and found that it took forever to reach trace. I decided to try regular olive oil instead. When I did this, as soon as I added the lye water and began to pulse a little with the blender, it traced and thickened within seconds. I tried to make sure that the oils were well mixed and that all the oil saponified. I poured it and unmolded it this morning. It seems to me that the edges of the loaf are white and flaky (unsaponified lye?) There was also a small amount of greasy film on the bottom of the mold and on the soap where it sat in it. The batches I made that day were 70 ounces of oil each, 75% olive oil and 25% coconut oil. I heated the oils to about 120-130 F. I didn't check the temperature of the lye solution, as I recently read a book by a well-known chemist that said the temperature of the lye isn't important (is he wrong?) Superfatted 7%. If any of you have any idea as to what's going on here, I'd much appreciate the input. Thanks alot!
Soap tracing too quickly?
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your terminology is confusing me a bit = are you making HP or CP? If CP (not cooking), then the oils are not saponified in the bowl - so did you mean emulsified?
It sounds like you are simply soaping far too hot. Aim for about 110 - 120F. Technically the temp of the lye isn't important, really - tho some tell you to match the temp of the oils to the lye, but if your lye is really hot then the temp of the mix is higher. Since you are just beginning, keep it lower. Not room temp since OO can be slow.
Are you sure your OO is pure OO?
70 ounces is a pretty big batch. I'd suggest 2# (32 oz) batches until you figure out what you are doing. If that's too little for your mold, I suggest improvising smaller molds - line a box, use tupperware, etc.
It sounds like you are simply soaping far too hot. Aim for about 110 - 120F. Technically the temp of the lye isn't important, really - tho some tell you to match the temp of the oils to the lye, but if your lye is really hot then the temp of the mix is higher. Since you are just beginning, keep it lower. Not room temp since OO can be slow.
Are you sure your OO is pure OO?
70 ounces is a pretty big batch. I'd suggest 2# (32 oz) batches until you figure out what you are doing. If that's too little for your mold, I suggest improvising smaller molds - line a box, use tupperware, etc.
Yes it does. The mixture needs to emulsify (completely blend, basically) before trace. lovinsoap.com has a great post on it, I'll see if I can find it. Most or all OO soap recipes should come to trace slowly. Make sure you're stirring manually (just turn the SB off and pulse it a few times) as well as using the SB.
Your temps are pretty high - try soaping at 100-110F and make sure the lye water and oils are within about 10 degrees of each other. And absolutely make smaller batches. My largest ones are 78oz (to make 3 loaves) and I still get nervous using that much oil at once.
ETA It wasn't a post at lovinsoap, it's in her ezine, see this post:
http://www.lovinsoap.com/2011/01/1132/
Your temps are pretty high - try soaping at 100-110F and make sure the lye water and oils are within about 10 degrees of each other. And absolutely make smaller batches. My largest ones are 78oz (to make 3 loaves) and I still get nervous using that much oil at once.
ETA It wasn't a post at lovinsoap, it's in her ezine, see this post:
http://www.lovinsoap.com/2011/01/1132/
Some other probable causes to add....
Did you add any fragrance to your oils before adding the lye solution? Sometimes, depending on how ornery the FO is, an immediate trace can occur when the lye water hits the oils with the FO already in it. Whenever using a misbehaving fragrance that is notorious for doing that, one should forego the stickblender and hand-stir instead.
Another probable cause could be your lye solution %. If you are using a very concentrated lye solution like 50%, or to close to it, expect the oils to trace much quicker than normal.
The olive oil you used might have been a factor. Carebear brought up a good point when she asked if you were sure your olive oil was pure, because it turns out that some olive oils being sold and labeled as olive oil have been found to actually be spiked with a mix of other oils, which in turn has been the cause of various troubles for some soapers.
Well, yes and no. What I mean is that it all depends on your formula and what types/how much of solid fats you are using, and how hot the fats are when they are in their melted state. If your lye solution is cool enough so as to bring the temp of your melted solid fats down too much below their melting points, then, yes, the lye solution temp matters in such a case in that it will cause what is known as a pseudo trace. On the face of things with a pseudo trace, it looks like the batter is coming to a thick trace pretty quick, but in actuality the solid fats are just resolidifying or precipitating out before the lye can work it's magic on them. The finished bars of pseudo-taced soap have tell-tale white spots throughout the soap (stearic spots). It's not dangerous or anything (unless the soap refuses to be tongue neutral over time, that is), but just unsightly. If you're just using mostly liquid-at-room-temp oils, then the temp of the lye solution is not a critical factor.
In my soaps with a goodly amount of hard fats such as hydrogenated PKO, cocoa butter, mango butter and/or kokum butter, I like to heat my oils/fats to 120 degreesF and have my lye solution just barely warm to the touch when I feel the outside of the lye container. This works well for me at keeping pseudo trace at bay, especially when I add my cooler, room-temp colorants and FO.
IrishLass
Did you add any fragrance to your oils before adding the lye solution? Sometimes, depending on how ornery the FO is, an immediate trace can occur when the lye water hits the oils with the FO already in it. Whenever using a misbehaving fragrance that is notorious for doing that, one should forego the stickblender and hand-stir instead.
Another probable cause could be your lye solution %. If you are using a very concentrated lye solution like 50%, or to close to it, expect the oils to trace much quicker than normal.
The olive oil you used might have been a factor. Carebear brought up a good point when she asked if you were sure your olive oil was pure, because it turns out that some olive oils being sold and labeled as olive oil have been found to actually be spiked with a mix of other oils, which in turn has been the cause of various troubles for some soapers.
Well, yes and no. What I mean is that it all depends on your formula and what types/how much of solid fats you are using, and how hot the fats are when they are in their melted state. If your lye solution is cool enough so as to bring the temp of your melted solid fats down too much below their melting points, then, yes, the lye solution temp matters in such a case in that it will cause what is known as a pseudo trace. On the face of things with a pseudo trace, it looks like the batter is coming to a thick trace pretty quick, but in actuality the solid fats are just resolidifying or precipitating out before the lye can work it's magic on them. The finished bars of pseudo-taced soap have tell-tale white spots throughout the soap (stearic spots). It's not dangerous or anything (unless the soap refuses to be tongue neutral over time, that is), but just unsightly. If you're just using mostly liquid-at-room-temp oils, then the temp of the lye solution is not a critical factor.
In my soaps with a goodly amount of hard fats such as hydrogenated PKO, cocoa butter, mango butter and/or kokum butter, I like to heat my oils/fats to 120 degreesF and have my lye solution just barely warm to the touch when I feel the outside of the lye container. This works well for me at keeping pseudo trace at bay, especially when I add my cooler, room-temp colorants and FO.
IrishLass
busymakinsoap!
Well-Known Member
I have a recipe that reaches a light trace in seconds. I have made 50+ batches with this recipe and had no issues with the final bar.
My slowest tracing recipe (aside from castille) is prob 20 secs?
(my definition of trace is pretty light)
Lowering my temps doesnt slow trace, soaping at high temps keeps me from reaching a false trace
So (like I think Irish Lass said) as long as your lye water doesnt solidify your oils, and you don't reach a false trace before you have emulsified your oils/lye, you should be fine.
IMHO
As for crumbly edeges? Does it zap? did you get full gell, or is it ungelled on the edges, did you cut too soon?
And remember - what works for some (or even most) may not work for you, there are so many variables. this has been my biggest learning oh - and sometimes things just happen for no reason at all :roll:
My slowest tracing recipe (aside from castille) is prob 20 secs?
(my definition of trace is pretty light)
Lowering my temps doesnt slow trace, soaping at high temps keeps me from reaching a false trace
So (like I think Irish Lass said) as long as your lye water doesnt solidify your oils, and you don't reach a false trace before you have emulsified your oils/lye, you should be fine.
IMHO
As for crumbly edeges? Does it zap? did you get full gell, or is it ungelled on the edges, did you cut too soon?
And remember - what works for some (or even most) may not work for you, there are so many variables. this has been my biggest learning
oh - and sometimes things just happen for no reason at all :roll:technically no, but if it traces too fast all the components may not be completely mixed in which means you could end up with pockets of lye solution, of FO/EO or any additives you might be incorporating.sndrcr3 said:
judymoody
Well-Known Member
Could you possibly have gotten false trace? This is what Irishlass describes above as pseudo trace. I have had it happen in a 90% OO recipe that I was using to test fragrance oils on the theory that it would slow trace. Even in the absence of hard oils, I got immediate thickening that looked slightly grainy instead of smooth. I kept at it and then it thinned out to almost water consistency. Then it traced gradually and normally.
The first time I got false trace, I did not persist and I got separation as you describe.
I hope you work it out. Perhaps you can rebatch?
And I agree with the other posters' advice to stick with smaller batches at first.
The first time I got false trace, I did not persist and I got separation as you describe.
I hope you work it out. Perhaps you can rebatch?
And I agree with the other posters' advice to stick with smaller batches at first.
FreeRabbit
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I did notice that the exact temp makes a diffrence... 42-45C= 20-30mins until trace
38-40C= trace in about 10 mins and almost no use to stick blend...
I use this for example if I want to swirl or add honey or salt, and I want to make sure I have stable LIGHT trace- I will start a little higher... to make sure I have time there...
38-40C= trace in about 10 mins and almost no use to stick blend...
I use this for example if I want to swirl or add honey or salt, and I want to make sure I have stable LIGHT trace- I will start a little higher... to make sure I have time there...
G
Guest
You get stable trace with higher temps ? I don't pay much attention to temps, but I would have guessed the other way around ...
FreeRabbit
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Starum said:
no... a much lighter trace, with low temps it may turn thick too fast for me... it's only 2 degree diffrent
Starum said:
Formula, formula, formula. :wink: It all depends on the formula.
I get a 'stable light trace', too, whenever I soap my formulas that contain a higher % of solid fats like hydrogenated PKO, cocoa butter, kokum butter, etc... at a higher temperature than normal. If I soap them at room temp or wait until things cool down too far, I find to my consternation that I have a fast-forming pseudo trace on my hands to deal with and I end up with spotty soap.IrishLass
Thanks everyone for the great tips and advice. I tried again with the same amount of oils but at a much lower temp. I made sure the lye solution (concentrated at 38% - using SoapCalc. Superfat 7%) was to about 110f to 120f and that the oils were within 10 degrees of that, about 115 to 120f. I pulsed with the stick blender only once for a second. The rest of the time I stirred by hand. Trace happened again within 20 seconds. I did not add any essential oils or fragrances to the oils before melting them down and adding the lye. What I did add was 3 tsps. of kaolin clay, as I've found that this acts as a great stabilizer for essential oil fragrances. Could the clay be playing a part? I'm as sure as I can be that the oil I'm using is pure olive oil (75% of my recipe) and that the coconut oil is just that (25%of the recipe). I ordered from Jedwards International, but I plan on contacting them today to make 100% sure my oils are what they say they are. The batch of soap with the slightly crumbled edges did zap a bit when I tongue tested it, so I'm going to see what I can do to possibly rebatch it. That batch gelled all around accept for the edges, which left a "rind" around the soap which I don't mind the look of, however the crumbly zapping edges I mind big time :evil:
sndrcr3 said:
Ah- the bane of partial gel. 8) Zapping, and somewhat of a soft, crumbly texture (would you say cream cheese-like?) is pretty standard for freshly unmolded, ungelled soap, and it sounds like that's exactly what you may have going on there around your edges. If so, just let your soap sit for awhile longer, and 'dollars-to-donuts', the edges should cure out and catch up with the firm, tongue-neutralness of the innards just fine.
IrishLass
