One pound test, big oil pockets

I wanted to test a pumpkin puree, goat's milk (powdered) and cinnamon leaf EO (did not accelerate). I used the BB 1 lb silicone mold. I didn't cover it except for some saran wrap on the top and it just sat on the counter. The whole thing went well and appeared to be well mixed. The recipe:



After two days, it still feels soft and this is what it looks like after cutting:



Overheating? Put in fridge next time?

I think that might have helped!

You have a few things that all add heat in - all together I think it was just a touch too much heat. That said, I'm no expert on overheating.

How did you deal with the GM? I reserve a bit of water, roughly twice the weight of the powdered gm, mix it well, then add to my oils before adding the lye water, stick blending very well.

I'm surprised the cinnamon didn't accelerate for you. Normally, I give it a quick pulse or two with the SB, then hand stir.

houseofwool said:

How did you deal with the GM? I reserve a bit of water, roughly twice the weight of the powdered gm, mix it well, then add to my oils before adding the lye water, stick blending very well.

I'm surprised the cinnamon didn't accelerate for you. Normally, I give it a quick pulse or two with the SB, then hand stir.

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I always use some of the water meant for the lye to mix up the GM powder before I add to the oils, then SB until smooth. I added the pumpkin along with the GM powder into the oils. I even had to do a little SB after I added the EO before the trace. I was prepared for accelerated trace, but it didn't happen.

overheated.

the combo of gm and pumpkin puree can easily make your soap hot coz of the sugar content. the saran wrap may not be necessary, coz the heat will be trapped while it needs to get out.

i've not used cinnamon leaf EO previously, so can't comment on that.

It looks like over heating to me as well. The thing that still amazes me to this day however, is when I see a picture that appears to have a partial gel ring, yet shows signs of overheating. You would think if it got hot enough to overheat, it would either gel completely or volcano and release the heat. This one doesn't have an exploded top. Where did the heat go?

I need DeeAnna to come along and give me a physics lesson on how this happens.:smile:

It absolutely is overheating. I would put it in the freezer next time. Pumpkin, cinnamon, may not accelerate, but it does heat, and gm are all heater uppers. Pumpkin because of the sugar content. When I use gm powder I just sb it into my oils before adding in the lye solution. You can smoosh up your bars and rebatch them. They will smoosh easily

JustBeachy said:

It looks like over heating to me as well. The thing that still amazes me to this day however, is when I see a picture that appears to have a partial gel ring, yet shows signs of overheating. You would think if it got hot enough to overheat, it would either gel completely or volcano and release the heat. This one doesn't have an exploded top. Where did the heat go?

I need DeeAnna to come along and give me a physics lesson on how this happens.:smile:

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That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw that picture. I hope DeeAnna does explain it, cause it has me scratching my head.
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navigator9 said:

That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw that picture. I hope DeeAnna does explain it, cause it has me scratching my head.

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JustBeachy said:

It looks like over heating to me as well. The thing that still amazes me to this day however, is when I see a picture that appears to have a partial gel ring, yet shows signs of overheating. You would think if it got hot enough to overheat, it would either gel completely or volcano and release the heat. This one doesn't have an exploded top. Where did the heat go?

I need DeeAnna to come along and give me a physics lesson on how this happens.:smile:

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Are we looking at a partial gel, or a full gel and partial overheat? It might well be a ring in the centre, which we usually associate with partial gel, but are we looking at a fully gelled soap with an overheated centre?

ETA - I am not DeeAnna, I have no Superhero Cape like she does.

That is full gel. Then the center overheated. Look at the residue on the mold compared to the loaf edge. I had to use a magnifying glass to see it, but there is a big difference once you do. I do not see a partial gel ring.

Did any liquid leak out of the soap? If so, you need to figure out what it was, and how much it was.(Weigh the paper towels it soaked into, then weigh the same number of paper towels to get the weight of the difference.) If it was oil, I would replace that amount in the pot when rebatching. If it was NaOH solution, worst case scenario is you get a higher superfat.

I know that most new soapers think the way to try new recipes is to make very small batches(this one is 1 lb/537 g) to not waste ingredients should something go badly. It is really not a good idea. Small errors in weighing or too many ingredients that create heat cause are greatly magnified when you are dealing with a small batch. It is much better to deal with cheaper ingredients in larger amounts(32 oz/1000 g of oil range) until you get the process down and learn what to avoid. And probably your soap would have been fine if you had used individual bar molds, or not insulated, used less heaters, etc . But it takes time and practice to get the hang of all those things.

Not saying you're wrong susie, but I'm seeing a gel ring. The residue on the mold is at a level that would be at the top line of the soap in the mold and wouldn't resemble the interior of a gelled soap. It looks nothing like any fully gelled soap I've made, and being a avid CPOP, I've seen my share.

My non scientific explanation is, that the soap overheats in the center and expands, causing the loaf to "mound". Without enough reaction to actually burst out of the top, the soap then cools back down but the excess air is trapped in the center causing the tunnels. Again though, if this theory is correct, then is it just the same thing as a normal partial gel? It gets hot enough in the center to overheat, but then cools before it can gel or burst?

Another reasoning behind this is that air layers provide great insulation, as evidenced by the "layering" of clothes, double pane windows, etc.

Not saying I'm right, but I'd have loved to see this batch in person through the entire process. Been there to feel the batter as it processed, etc.

The outside of the soap looks gelled to me. My theory is that on the outside it got hot enough to gel (but not separate) and the inside got overheated, and did separate.

I have rarely gotten separation but pumpkin puree was one of those times. Cinnamon leaf EO has always seized instantly for me. Add goat's milk and I find it hard to imagine that it wouldn't separate.

I agree with Susie's recommendations, especially regarding batch size.

With a 1 lb batch, I'd probably just throw it out rather than attempting a rebatch.

By the way, I have learned that if you add the pumpkin to your lye solution and let it heat and then cool back down, it won't overheat in your soap. Just use a tall container and add gradually because it could volcano on you. Same method works well for most heating ingredients (honey, beer, etc.) but it can also make your soap a darker color.

****, now it looks like I'm going to have to run an experiment and see if I can reproduce this reaction. In hundreds of batches, I've only had one soap overheat enough to even see a center sag after cooling. I use things that seem to cause soaps to overheat for people. Milks, beeswax.

I'll play with it Sunday after my daughter flies back out. See if I can add a bunch of sugar, honey, and CPOP. See if I can do a few batches, doing my typical checking the soaps as they process to watch for the point of full gel. Maybe I can get one to mound up, before it's fully gelled and stop the gel. See if it cures out to give the same look. I hate to let one fully pop, but might have to do it as a control. And try to get one to full gel, and still overheat in the center.

Hahaha, this should be interesting.

I just had to point out the alligator grin in the second bar from the top..

However, I think I'm on the it-fully-gelled-and-then-over-heated team. It looks to me as a complete gel and then the center overheated and formed the ring.

JustBeachy said:

****, now it looks like I'm going to have to run an experiment and see if I can reproduce this reaction. In hundreds of batches, I've only had one soap overheat enough to even see a center sag after cooling. I use things that seem to cause soaps to overheat for people. Milks, beeswax.

I'll play with it Sunday after my daughter flies back out. See if I can add a bunch of sugar, honey, and CPOP. See if I can do a few batches, doing my typical checking the soaps as they process to watch for the point of full gel. Maybe I can get one to mound up, before it's fully gelled and stop the gel. See if it cures out to give the same look. I hate to let one fully pop, but might have to do it as a control. And try to get one to full gel, and still overheat in the center.

Hahaha, this should be interesting.

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LOL, nope. To recreate it, you must follow the exact recipe and procedure. Sorry. :twisted:

I'm looking forward to your pics(yes, we want pics of every stage) and results.

Susie said:

LOL, nope. To recreate it, you must follow the exact recipe and procedure. Sorry. :twisted:

I'm looking forward to your pics(yes, we want pics of every stage) and results.

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Haha, I know scientifically you're right. I should duplicate the exact recipe. I just don't like pumpkin.:razz: And I'll take the overheated batches and just re batch it in the crock pot when I'm done so I don't have to just throw them away.

More than anything, I just want to see if I can recreate that tunnel without a full gel. That would prove my theory wrong. :shock:

JustBeachy said:

...............More than anything, I just want to see if I can recreate that tunnel without a full gel. That would prove my theory wrong. :shock:

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I thought you wanted to create a partial gel with that overheating? If you can do that, your theory might well be correct.

I think it IS a full gel and that ring is between full gel and overheated soap rather than partially gelled soap and overheated soap, so if you prove what I quoted above, then it supports my idea.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

I thought you wanted to create a partial gel with that overheating? If you can do that, your theory might well be correct.

I think it IS a full gel and that ring is between full gel and overheated soap rather than partially gelled soap and overheated soap, so if you prove what I quoted above, then it supports my idea.

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I'm thinking that's what i said here.

" More than anything, I just want to see if I can recreate that tunnel without a full gel."

The plan is to see if I can get the middle hot enough to start mounding, while watching it in the oven, yet stop it before I see it go to full gel. Then pull it out and cool it enough to stop the gel from continuing. If I can create the gel ring, and the overheated tunnel, then maybe it is something to do with the air insulating the outsides of the soap and preventing full gel. If the heat needed to overheat the soap causes the entire loaf to gel, it should go pretty quick, then my theory is completely wrong. And what you and the others see is correct, the center is discolored from the overheating.

I'm pretty used to watching the soap in the oven and knowing when full gel is only 10 to 15 minutes away. I should be able to pull it off, if I can get it to overheat. Again, I usually have no problems with OH even with my Milk soaps with Beeswax.

Susie said:

I know that most new soapers think the way to try new recipes is to make very small batches(this one is 1 lb/537 g) to not waste ingredients should something go badly. It is really not a good idea. Small errors in weighing or too many ingredients that create heat cause are greatly magnified when you are dealing with a small batch.

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Plus it gives you more respect for the cost of ingredients, and that makes you research the batch more intensely before you make it. With a really small batch there's that temptation to think "if something goes wrong no big deal"...

JustBeachy said:

I'm thinking that's what i said here.

" More than anything, I just want to see if I can recreate that tunnel without a full gel."
.......

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Ah, then it was the part about proving your theory wrong that misled me. Carry on!