What does SF mean in a recipe?

tbeck3579 said:

I should say my view of this is, environmental conditions (medium and temp) will change the outcome because the fatty acids have changed. I was thinking in terms of the huge variations in the oils used in soap recipes, and even the slight differences in the temperatures when "cooking" it. However, even the genetics of different olive trees would have some impact -- in my mind anyway.

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This shows the fatty acid variation in mid-oleic sunflower oil based on location (soil and weather). The seed in question is specially bred to have less linoleic and more oleic fatty acids in its oil. There are three different types of sunflower oil on the market that produce distinctly different results in soap. Plus, as you can see, each of those has its own variations depending on growing conditions.

topofmurrayhill said:

This shows the fatty acid variation in mid-oleic sunflower oil based on location (soil and weather). The seed in question is specially bred to have less linoleic and more oleic fatty acids in its oil. There are three different types of sunflower oil on the market that produce distinctly different results in soap. Plus, as you can see, each of those has its own variations depending on growing conditions.

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I'm not sure what study you are referring to. I did a quick search but I couldn't find the study quoted, but it wasn't specific to oils, it was specific to varying proportions of fatty acids. I'm not going to spend a great deal of time searching again because it seemed logical, and I've moved on to the next step in my personal soap making quest. I have the information I need to help me formulate a soap for my personal needs. It's good information (to me anyway) and anyone can use it or not, all info is FWIW to you personally This is the internet and gleaning what I need to answer my questions is what's important to me. Everyone agreeing with someone elses research, not so much Now if it was my personal hypothesis, and my experiment, I would be willing to defend it, hahaha

tbeck3579 said:

I'm not sure what study you are referring to. I did a quick search but I couldn't find the study quoted, but it wasn't specific to oils, it was specific to varying proportions of fatty acids. I'm not going to spend a great deal of time searching again because it seemed logical, and I've moved on to the next step in my personal soap making quest. I have the information I need to help me formulate a soap for my personal needs. It's good information (to me anyway) and anyone can use it or not, all info is FWIW to you personally This is the internet and gleaning what I need to answer my questions is what's important to me. Everyone agreeing with someone elses research, not so much Now if it was my personal hypothesis, and my experiment, I would be willing to defend it, hahaha

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Sorry there was supposed to be an attachment, included herein. Some of the points in question reminded me of this, which I think is the only time I've seen specific fatty acid variations shown for various planting locations. Same genome, different environments.

Via the mobile interface, a link will suffice.

https://www.sunflowernsa.com/uploads/resources/51/warner_.pdf

topofmurrayhill said:

Via the mobile interface, a link will suffice.

https://www.sunflowernsa.com/uploads/resources/51/warner_.pdf

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Genetics of any plant come into play at every stage of the game -- as does the soil, weather, and growing conditions. Everything from the seed you choose, germination, soil, which pests and diseases are present at any given time of the year, and when/how you harvest your crop will impact the outcome. As I've said many times, a dumb farmer is a dead farmer.

I live in ag country, surrounded by nothing but soybeans and corn. I literally do not have a stop light for more than 20 miles, and stop signs are mere suggestions -- BTW, take the suggestion when the corn is tall I am completely against GMO's and the dog gone GM corn is growing all around me (thank you corporate America!). The fields are pretty, no weeds, and the farmers are proud of their weed free crops. Round-up is already being applied to the fields. Tt's a subject that I try to steer clear of because it gets my cackles up. I know that feeding the world is no simple matter, but GMO's really aren't helping to solve a very real problem, IMHO. Genetics are extremely important and influence the outcome.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

That is interesting - can you link to the study with the numbers on that? I also think McSpin would enjoy that

ETA - I ask, because it would be interesting to see how the whole probability question is answered: a certain fatty acid saponifies more easily, but does that always mean that, if 1 molecule is more easily saponified is also 'competing' with 4 others that are slower, does the first ALWAYS go first, or does probability come in to play?

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Some specifics you were interested in are in here. When analyzing lye-discounted soap, it was found that the slower-saponifying fatty acids predominated. The composition of the residual fat was not similar to the original oils.

http://cavemanchemistry.com/LyeDiscount-Dunn.pdf

Dunn investigated three blends -- coconut oil + castor oil, palm + grapeseed oil, and palm + olive oil. He used 10% superfat/lye discount, and added the "superfat" (sorry, Effy) in two ways -- in the starting blend of fats and at trace.

In two of the three fat blends, he found the unsaponified fat remaining in the finished soap contained more unsaturated fatty acid than was in the original blend of fats used to make each soap. With the unsaturated ricinoleic acid (from castor oil), the opposite was true -- less ricinoleic acid was in the superfat than was present in the original fat blend. These trends were always true regardless of when the superfat was added -- either up front or at trace.

For the tests looking at linoleic acid (from grapeseed) and oleic acid (from olive), the superfat contained 2 to 3 times more unsaturated fatty acid than the original fat blend. That's a definite increase, but it is also true that saturated fatty acids remained the main fatty acids in the superfat -- very roughly 80%. For the test looking at ricinoleic acid (from castor), the superfat contained about half the ricinoleic acid compared with the original fat blend.

Dunn did not investigate more complex fat blends, due to his need to identify from which fat the fatty acids came from. If you repeated his experiments but looked at a blend that contains, say, avocado and olive, you could certainly measure the amount of oleic acid in the original fat blend and in the superfat. But from which fat does the oleic acid come from -- the olive or the avocado? There is no way to tell without doing something like isotope marker studies.

Even though we don't know how the fatty acid content will change when a complex blend of fats is used, I'd say it's reasonably safe to guess that oleic, linoleic and linolenic acids may be higher and ricinoleic acid might be lower in the superfat ... but honestly, here's no way to predict exactly how much without actually studying each mixture and looking for trends. I'd bet strongly that temperature, mixing intensity, water content, and a number of other variables will affect the outcome as much as the fats.