Gel Phase???

hellogorgeous said:

How do you guys prevent the gel process?? I've tried many many times - I've lost count. I've soaped at lower temps, and stuck it in the fridge. It still gels 100% all the time - and I prefer non-gelled, so it bugs the heck out of me. My basic soap recipe is olive oil, coconut oil, shea butter, castor oil, palm oil. Not complicated at all ...

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Are you using fragrance oils? I've had a few batches which still started to gel while in the frig. I looked up the info on the FOs and sure enough, people had posted comments about them heating up in the soap.

What kind of mold are you using? Wood molds hold heat in better than silicone. Have you tried putting your mold in the freezer and then taking it out when you need to pour the batch? I've done this and didn't get a partial gel. But to be fair, it might not have gelled even if the mold had been room temp.

eta: Whoops! I didn't see your comment about the wooden mold and putting it in a freezer. That's what I get for jumping in to reply to a post before I read the rest of the thread.

Gel/saponifiction

danahuff said:

Hi Lea Ann.

Gel phase is a point at which soap is undergoing the saponification process and becomes a sort of warm to hot transparent gel, then slowly becomes opaque and more solid, then cools off. If soap goes through gel phase, it tend to saponify faster.

Gel phase is not necessary, and some soapers actively try to prevent it by putting soap in the fridge or freezer. It does not prevent the soap from saponifying eventually. All it does is slow the process down. Some people like it to move more slowly because they like the look and feel of soaps that have not gelled. It's a personal preference.

So is definitely not considered bad if it didn't gel.

I don't know that certain oils make a difference. Some oils cause soap to reach trace faster, but I don't know that any of them necessarily make gel more likely to occur. At that point, it seems that the oils and lye are doing their work.

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Hi Folks

I have just started making soap so am new to this, though I did a lot of research before starting. I must say that the gel thing is still a little confusing to me.
When I add the lye solution my soap immediately turns to a sort of a carmely beige colour and trace always takes less than 4 - 5 minutes....sometimes only a minute or so with an electric hand mixer. It stays that colour throughout. There is some odd slight colour variations as it cures depending on what oil I use but I stick to pretty basic oils. So far the soaps have been great, clean very well (way better than bought soaps I have had), don't seem to be harsh - but don't lather much. I added castor oil to the last batch so we sill see (it is in the mold now).
Today however I took some out of the mold and it appears to have whiter blotches, which is I am assuming in gel phase, so this is the first time I have even noticed gelling. The whiter patches only go a couple of millimeters into the soap. The inside is an even "normal to me" colour.

A ramble perhaps to get to here perhaps, but my confusion comes with the gelling or partial gelling. If as suggested in the above quote, gelling is part of saponification and I have not noticed it before:
- if it doesn't matter if it happens or not, how does it saponify without the gelling phase.
- Does it always gel but is just vey subtle sometimes so one doesn't notice it? -Some people have said here that they try not to gel, so how does that affect saponification?
-What is the difference between soap that has gone through the gel phase and soap that hasn't?

My soaps so far seem to be OK (from my perspective at least) but it would be nice to know how all this works.

Thanks

Hoaper

Fran2 said:

I personally don't like the look of gel soaps, but I am relatively new at this anyway.

Is this correct that without gelling the soap will take 2-3 longer to cure? This I did not know, that puts a damper on things.

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I do not find my un-gelled soaps taking any longer to cure than gelled. Testing ph after 72 hrs will usually give an acceptable reading. I have even soaped slightly chilled oils, lye and molds when using a real heating fo such as so many coconut fo's are.

hellogorgeous said:

How do you guys prevent the gel process?? I've tried many many times - I've lost count. I've soaped at lower temps, and stuck it in the fridge. It still gels 100% all the time - and I prefer non-gelled, so it bugs the heck out of me. My basic soap recipe is olive oil, coconut oil, shea butter, castor oil, palm oil. Not complicated at all ...

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I put mine in the freezer for a couple of hrs. Some very heating oils will still partial gel. For example I could not stop my neem soap from gelling which included a high percentage of neem, goat's milk, honey, and buttermilk powder, so I went to individual square cavity silicone mold. Problem solved. I also did a soap recently with gm, beeswax, honey, bee propolis, goat's milk, buttermilk, orange & clove eo's ...boy was that a heater upper!!! IPoured it in the mold and it liquified immediately, this happened with everything was pre-chilled. Had to crockpot that puppy

@ hoaper

- if it doesn't matter if it happens or not, how does it saponify without the gelling phase.

There is still chemical conversion of the lye and oils even though the soap isn't getting hot. It just takes slightly longer.

- Does it always gel but is just vey subtle sometimes so one doesn't notice it?

I suppose it's possible. I've had some batches I've gelled that didn't develop the more translucent appearance of gelled soap. I always assumed it was due to what oils I used in the batch. Maybe someone else can give an answer.

-Some people have said here that they try not to gel, so how does that affect saponification?

Saponification slows down a little. Generally, my ungelled soap is fully saponified (zap free) in about 3 days. I have had a few batches which have taken longer.

-What is the difference between soap that has gone through the gel phase and soap that hasn't?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38486
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=29487
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=26012

I don't understand what you mean by "whiter patches". Can you post a picture?

Fran2 said:

Is this correct that without gelling the soap will take 2-3 longer to cure? This I did not know, that puts a damper on things.

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It’s been so long I had to go back and re-read what you meant by the 2-3. I saw in the header you had written weeks. It depends on what you prefer. I prefer to cure ungelled soap at least 6 weeks (so 2 weeks longer than soap I’ve let gel). But the main reason I let ungelled soap cure longer is the soap I make is higher in conditioning oils. I like the extra time to make sure the soap is hard and will last longer. If you’re using harder oils, it may not be necessary to cure longer than 4 weeks. You could experiment – use one bar at 4 weeks and then another at 6 weeks to see if there is a difference.

However, IMO, what’s the problem with a couple more weeks curing to make sure the soap is really hard? I’ve got recipes which I cure 3 and 6+ months before I like to use them. They just get better with age. I also have to admit that I'm a lot more patient now than when I first started making CP.

I have noticed ungelled soap takes longer to saponify but this might just because of my recipes and that I leave the soap in the frig until they don’t zap me. Other people might experience different results based upon their recipes and how they prevent gelling. I know some people have mentioned they put their soap in the freezer for a period of time and then take them out to finish saponifying at room temp. Some people have mentioned putting the soap in the freezer for awhile and then placing the soap in the frig. I don’t put my soap in the freezer. I just set them in the frig and leave them until they saponify. Your results will vary.

A few technical points (and some personal thoughts!) to add to Hazel's explanation:

Saponification is an exothermic chemical reaction - which means that as the oils react with the lye to form soap, heat is given off.
The rate of saponification is temperature dependent - which means that saponification happens more quickly at higher temperatures, and more slowly at cooler temperatures.
So if you don't cool the soap down to slow the rate/speed at which the oils saponify, the heat generated by the saponification reaction will cause an increase in the speed at which the reaction occurs - which will generate even more heat, eventually "melting" the soap (the gel phase). This is why some people apply external heat (like putting the soap in the oven, or using a heating pad) or insulate the soap with blankets or towels (to keep all of the heat around the soap), to ensure that you get a full gel.

The rate of saponification is usually highest in the first 4 to 6 hours, so this is when gel is most likely to happen. If you cool the soap (either in the freezer or the fridge), you slow down the speed at which the soap saponifies - so you don't get as much heating, and the saponification reaction takes a little longer to complete. But it will complete! (As Hazel says, ungelled soap is usually zap free after 2 to 3 days, instead of 1 day with gelled soap.)

For most soaps that are prepared at or around room temperature, putting the soap in the fridge for 6 hours should be enough to prevent gel. But some additives (honey is a good example) and EOs or FOs do cause additional heating, and if you put soaps with these ingredients in the fridge, you have a chance that you'll get a partial gel. This isn't an issue with the usability of the soap, but it doesn't look very attractive because the color changes slightly in the area where gel has occurred - and you can usually see a "halo" effect in the middle of the soap bars, which doesn't fade as the soap cures. So to avoid this happening, you can put the soap in the freezer for 3 to 4 hours (or even a little longer), and then move it into the fridge for a few hours to allow it to warm up slowly. (I usually put any special soaps, milk soaps or any soaps with expensive ingredients in the freezer, just to be sure that I don't get a partial gel.)




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Gel is just a "phase change" in soap that is caused by higher temperatures. It has nothing to do with saponification, really.

I can warm a finished (saponified) soap to about 160-170 deg F to turn it from a solid into a gel. That's what people do when they rebatch a soap. Or I can let a saponifying soap heat up due to the chemical reaction and the soap will also go into a gel phase. That is what y'all are talking about in this thread.

What do I mean by "phase change"? Water has three phases -- solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (water vapor or steam). Soap is a little more complicated in that it has a "gel" or "plastic" phase.

Here's an example -- If you heat a solid wax like beeswax, it eventually it turns from a solid into a liquid, right? One "phase" is the solid. Another is the liquid. But think about wax just before the wax liquifies -- the point where it softens and changes its color a bit, but is still more-or-less solid. That is the "plastic" phase -- this is a rough equivalent to the gel phase for soap.

Soap is a special type of solid -- it is actually a water-in-soap colloid (aka emulsion) that happens to be a solid at room temp. It doesn't actually melt into a liquid, unlike wax. If you warm soap past the gel phase, it will just break down and turn into a nasty overheated mess.

If you choose to prevent a saponifying soap from gelling, the saponification reaction will still occur, just more slowly because the temperature is lower. Saponification might take, say, 24 hours rather than just a few hours. As far as whether a gelled soap cures faster ... nope, sorry, it really doesn't. You only shorten the cure time by the number of hours cut off of the saponification time.

To prevent gel, your job is to keep the total soap temperature below about 170 deg F during the entire time the soap is saponifying. In other words, figure on keeping the soap cool for 8 to 24 hours, depending on the soap, sometimes even more. Here are some ideas:

Use a thinner mold -- a slab mold rather than a loaf mold -- so the soap is not as deep.
Use a mold that makes a smaller soap -- an individual bar mold rather than a large slab or loaf mold.
Choose a mold that has little or no insulation -- a thin plastic mold rather than a thick wooden mold.
Increase the heat transfer rate by using a fan. Believe it or not, moving room-temperature air can keep a soap cooler than putting the mold into the quiet air in a fridge or freezer.
Raise the soap off any surface that can retain heat -- put your mold on a cooling rack in front of a fan so air can circulate underneath the mold as well as over the top and sides. Or put the soap on a cold surface -- your garage floor in cold weather, for example.

YMMV and all that....

Ungelled



Partial Gel



I tried to avoid gel several times. The texture is different and liked by many people. The picture of the partial gel was my first attempt. I ended up sticking my mold in the freezer while I was putting together everything else and not taking it out until ready to pour. Then I just stuck it back in the freezer for a couple of hours only to transfer it to the fridge and forget about it for a few days. Success! I don't sell any soap so am unconcerned with how much time it takes so can't really say how long it should stay in the fridge. Loosey goosey seems to work well for me, other than lining molds.

I've been searching on the forum for a while now, but maybe I somehow missed the answer to my question: how long should we keep the loaf in the fridge to prevent gelling? Yesterday I tried for the first time to prevent gelling in a batch. After pouring, I put it in the freezer for a few hours, then I moved it to the fridge for a few more hours. After that, I put it in my soap closet over night, un-insulated. This morning it felt slightly warm to the touch. Does that mean it gelled? I pulled away some of the freezer paper to see what was going on in there. The loaf looks a little cakey and sticky. It is firm, and I think I could cut it, but I don't know if I should. What do you guys think?