The Endless Debate Continues- Natural vs Artificial vs Synthetic

By request, a new thread to continue this discussion.

Originally Posted by SaltedFig
Kittish, I get the point of what you are saying, but to answer your question directly, no, a lab-synthesized identical duplicate is synthetic, not natural.

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See, here's where it gets sticky, at least as far as I can see. According to FDA definitions, mineral pigments aren't actually 'natural', simply because they are not derived from a plant or animal source. But 'artificial' doesn't apply either, because the substances DO occur naturally. And 'synthetic' is a whole other sort of thing, more closely akin to 'natural' than to 'artificial'. In fact, a number of synthetic materials are 'nature-identical', so are they really not natural? And, as far as I understand, hand made soap can't really be legally labeled 'all natural' in the US. Commercial sodium hydroxide isn't obtained from either plant or animal sources.

I personally like nature-identical synthetics, especially for colorants. It brings the cost of the material down dramatically in some cases, and gives pretty good assurance that the pigment won't contain anything BUT pigment.

"All natural" doesn't have any legal meaning. I think perhaps you may be confusing that term with "organic" which does have legal meaning in the US.

A nature identical product is not the same as the product as harvested from nature, if only that a nature-identical product is, by necessity, a simplified imitation of the real thing as created by natural processes.

For example, you can make a "nature identical" honey that has the same fructose and glucose profile, viscosity, and color as the honey harvested from bees. The nature identical version, however, won't have the same pollen sources, enzymes, trace minerals, and other minor constituents that make honey from bees as uniquely flavorful as it is. Honey is widely adulterated and one of the ways to find cheaters is to look for those trace ingredients -- pollen especially -- or lack thereof.

In some cases, nature identical is safer or more desirable than the natural version. Some colorants used for soap making come to mind in that natural versions are contaminated with heavy metals and the nature identical versions are not.

Earlier this year I went looking for the FDA definition of the word natural. I found this paper, calling for comments, but at that time there was no definition:
https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=FDA-2014-N-1207-0001

If they've now created a definition for the word, could you post me a link so I can read it?

What qualifies as natural has been debated since the ancient greeks. I've had this discussion a few times, and often one person becomes adament that nothing is natural, or everything is.

I think we are generally aware of what people are looking for when they want a natural product: nothing that sounds like science was involved (because they're out to get you, and you'll age in horrible, unnatural ways....mwahaha). Most of us did not get a great education in the sciences, and "all natural" enthusiasts just want to use products with understandable labels, with ingredients processed in understandable ways.

For synthetic mineral pigments, no, I wouldn't say they are what people assume when "natural" is used on a label. For your own use though, is it any more or less natural than the lye you use to make soap?

And finally, because this issue comes up so much in labelling, just compare your label with store bought soap. Sweet Almond Oil, Coconut Oil, Shea Butter... who cares if there are one or two big words in there, the label reads like poetry. No need for deception.

P.s. Natural raw honey for me, all the way! I get it from a family that stuck their hives in the middle of 300 acres of wildflowers. Amazing stuff

P.p.s. They planted the wildflowers.... :twisted:

I like your original example of mica.

Mica can occur naturally, so you can have natural mica.
Mica can be made synthetically, so you can have synthetic mica.

The synthetic mica would be artificial, in the sense that it was made synthetically.

So Mica can be synthetic, artifical or natural (with synthetic and artificial being almost interchangeable in this example).

Nature-identical is another way of saying synthetic, so no, it's not natural.

I would have sworn I found an FDA definition for natural, and now I can't find that any more. So that part is pretty well moot. Grrrr... and just found something regarding synthetics and then lost it. Argh. Why is it so freakin difficult to find out what the actual laws are? :headbanging:

When it comes to honey, I want raw and locally produced if I can get it.

I still stand by my opinion that I would rather, in some cases, use synthetic products. Especially for things like colorants for soap and other body products. For food, I want as close to its original, living state as I can get. If it doesn't know it's dead yet, so much the better.

As for labeling soap, if I ever decide to try selling, my soaps will not be labeled 'all natural' or anything even similar. The most I'll claim is that my fragrance is natural since I use EOs to scent my soap (due to my own allergies). My ingredient list will list everything in properly descending order, with sodium hydroxide right there where it belongs in the list.

I find those examples interesting.

What IS honey? What IS a mica? I can't really answer that, but I do know that a mica is not the heavy metals that might contaminate it. Honey, to me, is a substance produced by bees as part of the pollination process. Not a scientific definition, but for me if there were no bees involved then it just isn't honey.

So synthetic honey doesn't contain the things that makes honey honey. Whereas a synthetic mica contains all the things which make a mica a mica, just without the contaminants.

I don't think that you even need to mention the naturalness of your soap. Especially not as it is meaningless. If people want that sort of thing, I am sure they would ask and you can properly explain

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

I find those examples interesting.

What IS honey? What IS a mica? I can't really answer that, but I do know that a mica is not the heavy metals that might contaminate it. Honey, to me, is a substance produced by bees as part of the pollination process. Not a scientific definition, but for me if there were no bees involved then it just isn't honey.

So synthetic honey doesn't contain the things that makes honey honey. Whereas a synthetic mica contains all the things which make a mica a mica, just without the contaminants.

I don't think that you even need to mention the naturalness of your soap. Especially not as it is meaningless. If people want that sort of thing, I am sure they would ask and you can properly explain

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That's pretty much where I've wound up, but you expressed it much better than I've been able to. Thank you.