Newbie - Can you review my proposed recipe?

First of all - "Hi!" to everyone. I'm new to the forum and new to soap making. I will say, though, that I've been a bit obsessive about studying up on the topic. I've had too much time on my hands (at work, actually), so I've really done my homework. I would like to make a couple of small batches to start, with the same base recipe and just different scents. I would love it if some of you more experienced soapers (which is probably all of you) would take a look at my proposed recipe and let me know if you see any problems either with my ingredients or my method?

Let me mention that I'm writing down the measurements to very small increments because I'm going to try to measure accurately, although I realize it's not going to be this exact. I figure, start with the exact numbers and do the best I can. I do have a digital scale that measure ounces or grams (down to 1 gram increments), so I'm hoping I can get as close as possible to the amounts in this small of a recipe. And yes, I know I have to convert to grams, but I figured most people use ounces, so I’d leave it that way for now.

Thank you so much!

INGREDIENTS:

8 oz Palm Oil (25%)
8 oz Coconut Oil (25%)
8 oz Olive Oil (25%)
3.2 oz Sunflower Oil (10%)
2.9 oz Castor Oil (9%)
1.9 oz Shea Butter (6%)
4.45 oz sodium hydroxide (about 6.5% superfatted)
10 oz water
1 gram Rosemary EO (I've read that adding 1 gram per kg of oils (prior to mixing oils with lye solution) will act as a preservative). I figure it can't hurt in such a tiny quantity.

Fragrance (all from WSP) - I'm thinking either:

2 oz Orange EO blend mixed into 1/2 of the soap mixture and swirled into the rest (I'm hoping it will add some faint color to the soap in addition to the scent)

OR Patchouli (.5 oz) and Cedarwood EO's (1 oz) blended
AND Vanilla Bean Noel FO (2/3 oz) -each mixed in 1/2 of the soap at light trace and swirled together

MY PROCESS:
1. Line mold
2. Weigh all ingredients
3. Mix lye into water, set aside
4. Melt solid oils, add liquid oils and add the 1 gram of Rosemary EO.
5. Wait for temps of lye water and oils to come close to each other, then mix (start with stick blender not turned on, stir and alternate with short bursts of stick blender). To be honest, I don't know what temperature to mix at. I've read that the temps should be pretty low (like around 100 degrees), but I've also seen numerous recipes at 140 - 160 degrees. I'm hoping that a median temperature around 130 will do. PLEASE do correct me if I'm way off base here.
6. At light trace, separate out 1/2 of soap mixture into another bowl and mix with Essential Oils or Fragrance Oils, as stated above.
7. Swirl back together in pot and pour into lined mold. Cover with plastic wrap and box lid (I have a real soap mold/box) and wrap in a couple of towels.
8. Let harden for 24 - 48 hours
9. Unmold, cut and let cure for 4 weeks or so.
10. Test for PH (I'm thinking litmus paper, but if people prefer that chemical tester (I forget the name of the substance), please let me know your thoughts).

Thank you all so much for taking the time to help out a newbie!

Kat

Hi SudsyKat,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not an expert soap maker so I'm going to let someone else step in to go over your procedures. However, I do like the numbers for your recipe. It's one I would try as an experiment but I would add less shea and either a little more co or castor (because I like bubbles )

I've used WSP's Vanilla Bean Noel in CP and it will turn your soap a very dark brown. You don't need a preservative in soap. Where did you read that 1 gram Rosemary EO will act as a preservative? I've heard of using Rosemary extract as an antioxidant but not the EO. Although Rosemary EO is wonderful for the skin and I love the scent.

I will just point out of a couple of things since I'm no expert either -

The way I interpreted it, this is your first batch (could be wrong). I would use a much less complicated recipe for your very first batch, like 100% olive oil, and also don't try any swirling or doing 1/2 and 1/2 scents until you have tried the basic process at least a couple of times.

Also, soap does not need a preservative, and rosemary is not a preservative. Using that small of a quantity is basically a waste anyway, since you probably won't even smell it.

Orange essential oil (and other citrus eo's) will fade in cold process soap. The scent will usually not stay very long. So that is also a waste.

I am only telling you this so you will not end up disappointed and discouraged. Try to take it easy and go simple for your first few batches - I would do 1-2 lbs of olive oil soap with one fragrance to start.

Yes, the Vanilla Bean FO will turn your soap dark brown, but it smells delish! Your formula looks very nice, and I say go for it. Did you run it through soapcalc.net to see what the qualities will be?

You don't need Rosemary extract. Orange EO doesn't work well in CP soap. I've not used EOs, but you certainly could mix the Patch & Cederwood up before hand and add that mix at trace.

100% olive oil can be tricky since it takes so long to trace.

Your temps don't have to match. Higher temps mean faster trace. Lower temps usually mean slower trace, but some FOs can really speed things up. You could try for the lower range of 110-120.

You could try swirling if you used the Vanilla Bean. Set aside about 8 oz to leave unscented and uncolored, and add the FO to the remaining soap. You really won't see the color until the next day, but the part with the Vanilla Bean will turn dark. It could also bleed into the unscented soap and turn it all dark. You won't know until you try. Let us know how it turns out!

Hello SudsyKat and welcome to the forum!

I agree with ewenique- your formula looks nice to me, and I say go for it as well!

I also agree with everyone about the rosemary extract not being a preservative. There is a lot of soaping misinformation floating around out there about rosemary being a 'natural' preservative, but it's actually an anti-oxidant. Anti-oxidants help to extend the shelf-life of oils as they sit on the shelf, while a preservative helps to kill yucky yeasts, molds and bacteria- two different things. In any case, lye soaps don't need preservatives anyway.

I also agree with orange EO not working very well in CP soap, unless it's 10-fold orange EO, that is. I hear that the 10-fold is strong enough and holds up much better in CP than the regular strength orange EO.

About temps: It really depends on the melting points of the solid fats one uses in their formula. When I use certain butters, for instance, I soap a little hotter than my butter's melting point so that it won't try to re-solidify on me in my soaping pot as I'm mixing everything together, causing a pseudo trace. Just find out the melting point of your hardest hard fat and then soap your batch at a temp that's a little hotter than its melting point.

Regarding pH: Many soapers (including me) don't test for pH because we've found it to be unnecessary (and also unreliable, depending on the method one uses). The zap test is very simple and is really all a soaper needs to make sure a soap is safe to use, but if you still want to do an actual pH test to get a measurable #, the most accurate way is with a properly calibrated pH meter or with the chemical called phenophalen (sp?). Where lye soap is concerned, testing with pH strips is the least accurate way to test for pH. If and when you do test with a meter or the phenophalen, don't be alarmed if your CP soap tests out to be 9 to 10.5. That is actually the norm for properly made and cured lye soap. They are never neutral. They always test out on the alkaline side. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your soap- it's just the nature of lye soaps, even if you superfat really high. If they test out much lower than 9, you can be sure that your pH measuring device might be off a bit.



HTH!
IrishLass

ewenique -

That's what happened with my VBN soap. I scented half and left half unscented then swirled them together. The scented portion turned very dark and eventually over time kind of bled into the unscented part. Also, my lather was brown! It was disturbing to say the least...

But it did smell fantastic and the next time I made another batch I used a color stabilizer for CP. This batch has stayed a dark cream color.

SudsyKat -

tasha's correct about citrus fading but I've had good luck using WSP's Energizing blend (sweet orange & ginger) in HP. I'm just finishing up the last bar and I can still smell the scent. I made it 3 months ago and the scent has faded a little but it's still nice.

I don't know if it would have lasted as long in a CP batch.

If you really want to use orange EO, you might try blending it with something to help anchor the scent. There was a discussion awhile ago on anchoring citrus scents.

edit: I just saw IrishLass has already discussed citrus. Anyway, the Energizing blend has lasted several months in an HP batch.

Take a look in the Photo Gallery under First Pics. I use the Vanilla Bean in my coffee soap, and the top stays light. When I tried a swirl in a Pringles can, all the soap turned brown after a couple weeks. The swirl was pretty while it lasted!
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... hp?t=19503

Thanks, all!

Thank you all so much for your input. I read the topic about citrus scents - very informative. I've decided to try a different blend of oils. I'm thinking I'll make a holiday scent - orange, cinnamon and clove, plus litsea for an anchor.

I have 2 questions - one about the citrus thing and one about using a fixative oil (castor.

1) I'm not clear on the amount of scents to use when I'm combining scents. I mean, I've read recommended amounts (like for example, about .8 oz of citrus EO per pound of oils). I get that. Then, I've seen suggestions for mixing scents in certain percentages - like how much base, middle, and top. What I don't understand is how to figure out how much to put when you're combining scents. Let's take my idea as an example. Based on various suggestions I've read, if I were using these each by themselves, I'd use:

.8 oz ppo of the orange (10X or 15X)
4 oz ppo of the clove and cinnamon (because they're "strong" EOs)
I'm not sure how much of the Litsea.

Do I just use the recommended amount of each or do I calculate a percentage? In other words, if I want a scent that's 70% orange, and 10% of each of the others, would I take 70% of the total amount of orange and 10% of the total amount of each of the others? Or would I just use the full recommended amounts of each.

Sorry if that was super confusing!

2) About using an oil as a fixative - I'm not clear on whether or not to include that oil in the total oils amount or to let it just be a superfatting oil. I've heard that you can mix your EOs with about 2 oz of castor oil before adding them at trace. In a larger recipe, it's not a huge deal, but in a smaller recipe like I'd like to make (3 lbs oils total), it can make a significant difference. Even though you add the oil at trace, will the oil still be saponified during the initial setting phase?

Thanks for your help - again - and your support!

Kat

SudsyKat said:

1 gram Rosemary EO (I've read that adding 1 gram per kg of oils (prior to mixing oils with lye solution) will act as a preservative). I figure it can't hurt in such a tiny quantity.

Click to expand...

Hi SudsyKat! What the recipe should be calling for is Rosemary OE.

Rosemary OE (aka ROE - Rosemary Oleoresin Extract is very different from Rosemary Essential Oil. It is in fact a preservative, and more specifically it is used in CP soaping to stave off DOS - Dreaded Orange Spots. In reviewing your recipe, as long as you use distilled water, it should not be prone to rancidity or DOS. Coconut Oil is highly anitoxidant when mixed with other oils, and at 6.5 SF you should have enough left over to offer you some protection anyway.

PS - I don't know off the top of my head what the usage rate is for ROE, so double check that too if you plan to use it. 1 gram may or may not be correct for a 1 kilo recipe.

Re: Thanks, all!

SudsyKat said:

4 oz ppo of the clove and cinnamon (because they're "strong" EOs)

Click to expand...

Not only are they strong, they are terribly misbehaved... Just a word of caution, I would not use any spice oils until you have built on a solid base of experience with unscented soaps, then some scents that play nice. If you mix up spice oils at the wrong temperature or time, you'll probably end up with soap on a stick (aka seizing).

Re: Thanks, all!

ChrisShepp said:

SudsyKat said:

4 oz ppo of the clove and cinnamon (because they're "strong" EOs)

Click to expand...

Not only are they strong, they are terribly misbehaved... Just a word of caution, I would not use any spice oils until you have built on a solid base of experience with unscented soaps, then some scents that play nice. If you mix up spice oils at the wrong temperature or time, you'll probably end up with soap on a stick (aka seizing).

Click to expand...

They are also irritating to the skin if too much is used.

Spice oils are really not recommended in soap as they are skin irritants.

Here is an easy way to calculate top middle & base.

Top note - 4 parts
Middle notes - 3 parts
Base notes - 1 part

This will give you the nicest blend and keep it balanced. Now here is a general rule to determine where the EO fits in for Top, Middle & Base.

Top Notes - light and airy. Here are some of them: Tea Tree, Citrus, Eucalyptus, Clary Sage

Middle Notes - are the body - these are the ones that usually the most popular and include Geranium, Lavender, Peppermint, Spearmint, Chamomille, Rosemary, Rose Geranium (there are more)

Base Notes - are deep lasting scents - these are the ones that linger the longest and they literally create the foundation for your blend. Some of them are Rose, Ylang Ylang, Cedarwood, Francense, Sandalwood.

I hope that makes sense to you.

Something else you need to know is that depending on how much you use (.8% PPO of the TOTAL blend is the maximum recommended) all EO's have contraindicators which if you are going to be using you should learn about. Take the time to learn about the EO you want to use because essential oils are basically an over the counter drug that doesn't have any regulations attached to them.

So much great input - thanks

Thank you all again for the great input. Regarding the Rosemary Oleoresin Extract, thanks for correcting me on that. It seems like maybe I don't need that at all - not at this point.

One thing that noobody has addressed yet is the question of adding the castor oil at trace, with the EOs mixed in (castor oil acting as a fixative) (at the very end of my post). My question was about the lye discount.

Thanks again, so much. I promise to post my results, though I suspect I won't be making this for another week or more (still have to finalize my recipe and get some more ingredients).

There's so much great, helpful stuff on this forum. I appreciate all of your time.

Re: So much great input - thanks

SudsyKat said:

One thing that noobody has addressed yet is the question of adding the castor oil at trace, with the EOs mixed in (castor oil acting as a fixative) (at the very end of my post). My question was about the lye discount.

Click to expand...

Kat,

Not sure where you read that Castor oil is a fixative; that's baloney. At least in soaping. Just add your EOs neat, doesn't really matter when. You can mix them with your base oils before "lye-ing" or add at trace. The only time I recommend adding to the base oils as opposed to trace is for oils that accelerate or seize (like spices!); the effect won't be as bad.

And lastly: Side note, going back to the castor... if you were to add an additional 2oz of any oil - castor included - you'd need to account for it in the lye calculator, especially if it is a small batch.

Happy soaping lovey!

Lindy said:

.8% PPO of the TOTAL blend is the maximum recommended)

Click to expand...

Lindy,

I wanted to double-check with you about something. I've noticed that a lot of people all over the web have a huge variety of opinions about all of the different aspects of soap making (what a surprise, right!?!). Anyhow, you say .8% Essential Oils per pound of oil? That seems small compared to other numbers I'm seeing. Did you mean .8 ounces max ppo? .8% would be less than 1% EO per pound of oil. I'm just double checking. Some other numbers I've heard are:

3% - 6% in relation to total base oils or
.4 to .9 ounces ppo, depending on type/scent

I'm sure that I'll develop a preference as I make more soap, but I'm looking for a good starting point.

Thanks!!

Kat - ChrisShepp is right with the castor oil.... I add mine in neat to my soap batters. The only time you dilute it is in therapeutic blends and then you're using SAL, Grapeseed, Jojoba etc.

When I gave you the .8 oz PPO it really was that amount that I was referring to. Let me put it to you this way - when I am blending for therapeutic treatments I start at 4 drops per 25 ml of carrier up to 25 drops in 25 ml depending on age, contraindicators and EO's being used. As you can see it doesn't take much to move into therapeutic values. People have different metabolisms and someone with a slower one is going to take longer for this to work through their system. I know this is a wash-off product, but there is always residual left behind after rinsing which allows for absorption. Also EO's are absorbed through the nasal cavity through inhalation too.....

SudsyKat said:

Lindy said:

.8% PPO of the TOTAL blend is the maximum recommended)

Click to expand...

Lindy,

I wanted to double-check with you about something. I've noticed that a lot of people all over the web have a huge variety of opinions about all of the different aspects of soap making (what a surprise, right!?!). Anyhow, you say .8% Essential Oils per pound of oil? That seems small compared to other numbers I'm seeing. Did you mean .8 ounces max ppo? .8% would be less than 1% EO per pound of oil. I'm just double checking. Some other numbers I've heard are:

3% - 6% in relation to total base oils or
.4 to .9 ounces ppo, depending on type/scent

I'm sure that I'll develop a preference as I make more soap, but I'm looking for a good starting point.

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

0.8 OUNCES per pound of oils, which works out to 5%

but how much EO you use depends entirely on what EO you are using and what you are trying to achieve. there are no max or mins, really - though I'd not go over an ounce per pound in most cases.

Got it - thanks!

Lindy, thanks for the clarification - I figured you meant ounces and not percent, but being a newbie, I didn't want to assume. And thanks to everyone for your input. I'm just waiting for some of my ingredients to arrive and I'll let you know how it turns out.

Kat

First Time Results

Well, I promised I'd post once I made my first batch, so here it is! Thank you all so much for your input. I don't comment frequently, but I have been reading the forum a lot. So, overall, I'd say it was a success! I made my first 2 batches - same recipe, with slight variation in scent/method.

My first batch was with Patchouli and Cedarwood EOs and Vanilla Bean Noel fragrance oil. It went PERFECTLY! Seriously. I can't complain. I used a slab type mold and poured all but 8 ounces of the soap (I left 8 ounces unscented) into the mold. Then I poured in the 8 ounces in and swirled gently. It came out looking like marble. How cool!

The second batch went well, but I made a silly mistake with the scents. Not a disaster by any means, but not the scent I intended. What I did was i put the small amount of Listea Cubeba (prepared beforehand) into the mix. Then I reached for what I thought was a 2 ounce bottle of 15X Orange EO, and poured in the whole bottle. However, I didn't look at the label carefully because what I ended up doing was just pouring in the rest of the Listea Cubeba bottle. So, a very lemony (and lovely) scent. Not what I intended, but oh well!

Other differences with the second batch - I used a loaf (bread pan, to be exact), instead of a slab. I wanted to see what I preferred. I think the loaf did not look as neat. Of course, it's not perfectly square - not intended for soap, so I shouldn't be too surprised. I'm not really disappointed though because it came out looking just really "natural", like chunks of soap. And I swirled in the pot before pouring into the mold - that was different from the first batch. The EO didn't create much of a color anyway so it's a really light swirl.

I can't wait to try a million more things with soap. What a blast! And as a side benefit, the house smells great, alternating between vanilla and citrus!

Vanilla wet in the mold:

Vanilla just before unmolding:

Vanilla cut:

Lemon cut:

they look fantastic! I especially love the marble look.