Holiday soap woes part II

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MissLunaB

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So after reading, research, and a "go flip itself" attitude I've worked a recipe and I would like some tallow and goat milk makers to chime in please.

33% (liquid as percent to oils) goat milk
35%tallow
25% coconut Oil
25% coco butter
15%castor oil
IMG_0367.jpg

I want this bar to be really bubbly so I was wondering if adding in 1-2T of sugar will help or would it push the bubble power overboard and cause me to lose bubble power(with the added sugar in goat milk).
Also will the tallow and goat milk work against each other or together for the creaminess power? I did a search and couldn't find much on people using goat milk and tallow( well other than anti [emoji90])

Thanks
~Luna
 
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I think with that recipe, it will be soft/sticky from too much castor and that high amount of coconut along with the tallow, it could be drying. I suspect the high coco butter will really reduce lather too.
The problem with really bubbly soap is its often drying since the bubbly oils are also the cleansing oils. Castor will help boost lather but it won't actually make more bubbles, thats why its used in smaller amounts.

Are you open to lard instead of tallow? I like lard a lot more and its usually easier to find. I'd suggest something like this.

lard 45%
coconut 20%
olive or avocado 20%
cocoa butter 10%
castor 5%

with tallow

tallow 50%
coconut 15%
olive 20%
cocoa butter 10%
castor 5%

Goat milk will work just fine with the tallow but I find aloe juice adds a lot more bubbles than milk does. I use aloe juice from walmart, its the kind made for drinking. You can replace your water completely with the juice and it won't burn, overheat or get a bad smell.
 
I've become partial to tallow right now and it's just as easy to get as lard is, for me anyway. Also I read somewhere that beginners should really stick to 30% or less when it comes to tallow or you will run into problems.
Will aloe juice give a real creamy creamy feel? I already like the current creaminess of tallow now but if I can make it more creamy that would be great!
I was on the fence about castor and olive, I think I went with castor because I was worried about my bar being to hard to unmold and being soft with the olive oil, I want a firm hard bar still. Maybe add salt too to harden my bar?
 
With the tallow and cocoa butter, the bar will be plenty hard but a little salt won't hurt.

Aloe doesn't really add creaminess but it does help make big fluffy bubbles. The cocoa butter will help make it creamy though.

Olive won't make a soft bar if you keep it low, I use 25% or less. Even if the bar is a little soft at first, it will still get rock hard with a cure.
 
I don't know why someone thinks going over 30% tallow is a problem for beginners. In general, I have a problem with people making most generalizations for beginners; ex: a beginner shouldn't make a 100% olive oil soap. Fact is, each person is different and you can't predict what beginner with have or not have problems with any aspect of basic soaping.

I agree with Obsidian's comment on castor oil, 5% is good, 15% can make for a sticky soap. The recipe she suggested with the lower amounts of castor and cocoa butter is a nicely balanced one.

Tallow adds to the cleansing/stripping of your soap so that in combination with your co amount could be drying to skin - you won't know unless you try.

I find it curious that you and some others find tallow creamy. I don't - I find it milky. We probably just have a different definition of creamy. I enjoy a high tallow soap because of its crispness. It pairs well with unrefined avocado oil, and shea butter. Those have a high amount of unsaponifiables and do add to the creaminess that tallow doesn't give.


People do comfortably use 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon of sugar per pound of oils add to the bubbles. I don't like the toughness it adds to the bubbles, especially in high olive oil soaps. Since you're using milk, I suggest starting with 1 tsp per pound and see how it comes. Be aware milk heats up the soap.

Just an fyi about lard (in case you try it in the future); my go to recipe is 15% co which is somewhat on the low side of bubbly. Lard makes a voluminous creamy lather which to me is its own type of bubbly. Tallow lather is like whole milk, while lard lather is like cream that's been whipped about 2/3 of the way to finished whipped cream.

And then there's salt bars!!
 
My go recipe is 45% tallow 25% lard, 15% coconut oil or 8/7% pko/co, 5% castor (castor oil does accelerate trace), 10% soft oil such as sunflower, canola, avocado. The lard and soft oil slows trace enough to make it workable, is not drying, last a long time and lather decently. I add in sugar at the rate of 3.5% of my oil weight
 
I don't know why someone thinks going over 30% tallow is a problem for beginners. In general, I have a problem with people making most generalizations for beginners; ex: a beginner shouldn't make a 100% olive oil soap. Fact is, each person is different and you can't predict what beginner with have or not have problems with any aspect of basic soaping.

I agree with Obsidian's comment on castor oil, 5% is good, 15% can make for a sticky soap. The recipe she suggested with the lower amounts of castor and cocoa butter is a nicely balanced one.

Tallow adds to the cleansing/stripping of your soap so that in combination with your co amount could be drying to skin - you won't know unless you try.

I find it curious that you and some others find tallow creamy. I don't - I find it milky. We probably just have a different definition of creamy. I enjoy a high tallow soap because of its crispness. It pairs well with unrefined avocado oil, and shea butter. Those have a high amount of unsaponifiables and do add to the creaminess that tallow doesn't give.


People do comfortably use 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon of sugar per pound of oils add to the bubbles. I don't like the toughness it adds to the bubbles, especially in high olive oil soaps. Since you're using milk, I suggest starting with 1 tsp per pound and see how it comes. Be aware milk heats up the soap.

Just an fyi about lard (in case you try it in the future); my go to recipe is 15% co which is somewhat on the low side of bubbly. Lard makes a voluminous creamy lather which to me is its own type of bubbly. Tallow lather is like whole milk, while lard lather is like cream that's been whipped about 2/3 of the way to finished whipped cream.

And then there's salt bars!!

You said that you dont like how sugar adds to the toughness of the bubbles. Could you explain what this means. I found your post very informative, thank you. However, im confused about bubbles being tough?? Is the lather scratchy?
 
...Aloe doesn't really add creaminess but it does help make big fluffy bubbles. The cocoa butter will help make it creamy though....

I'm curious if you can mix aloe juice and goat milk.


I don't know why someone thinks going over 30% tallow is a problem for beginners. In general, I have a problem with people making most generalizations for beginners; ex: a beginner shouldn't make a 100% olive oil soap. Fact is, each person is different and you can't predict what beginner with have or not have problems with any aspect of basic soaping...

Ah, I use "advice" as guide lines for my first couple of tries before I start toeing the line and eventually jumping in. I believe the problem comes when beginners use this "advice" as golden rules and stick to it and do not go out side of the said "advice" :)

...Tallow adds to the cleansing/stripping of your soap so that in combination with your co amount could be drying to skin - you won't know unless you try.



I find it curious that you and some others find tallow creamy. I don't - I find it milky. We probably just have a different definition of creamy. I enjoy a high tallow soap because of its crispness. It pairs well with unrefined avocado oil, and shea butter. Those have a high amount of unsaponifiables and do add to the creaminess that tallow doesn't give.





People do comfortably use 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon of sugar per pound of oils add to the bubbles. I don't like the toughness it adds to the bubbles, especially in high olive oil soaps. Since you're using milk, I suggest starting with 1 tsp per pound and see how it comes. Be aware milk heats up the soap.



Just an fyi about lard (in case you try it in the future); my go to recipe is 15% co which is somewhat on the low side of bubbly. Lard makes a voluminous creamy lather which to me is its own type of bubbly. Tallow lather is like whole milk, while lard lather is like cream that's been whipped about 2/3 of the way to finished whipped cream.



And then there's salt bars!!




I don't find tallow creamy either, the lather is big and fluffy but watery, or maybe lacking in oomph is a better term.



I find lard to be a much creamier, thicker lather even if the bubbles are smaller.


I don't know how people find tallow stripping to me it's awesome and with coco butter and Shea it's a squeaky clean factor that I love! My mom loves it too and it lathers so nicely on a wash rag or scrub rag. I guess the creaminess can be compared to fresh frosting that hasn't had the time to set yet? Idk XD
With the holidays coming up I'll steal some lard from he 5lb bucket we get every year and compare the two. (I'm going to need another mold)

With Obsidian's suggestions last night I reworked my recipe but now that lenarenee has chimed in I might have to rework it some more, but this is what I have so far. The numbers I weird because I was tweaking each factor to be within a certain range.

IMG_0368.jpg
 
Unless you and the people you are making this soap for have oily skin, I would really suggest getting the cleansing number down around 15. The only numbers I really look at anymore is the cleansing, I don't want dry skin.

I don't know what lenarenee means by too tough of bubbles. I know sugar makes bubbles tougher so they last longer, this is why it seems like sugar makes more lather. I've only even used 2 tsp PPO max so I don't know what 1tbs PPO feels like. If you are using milk, beer or juices, I would only use 1 tsp PPO to prevent overheating.

You can mix milk and aloe, you can pretty much use any liquid in any combo you want. Personally, I don't notice any difference with animal milk. Aloe is my favorite followed by coconut milk. Aloe increases lather, coconut milk adds creaminess.

Curious, do you have hard or soft water?

This is a tallow soap I made before I really knew what I was doing. Its a great hand soap but is a bit too drying for the shower, at least for me. Now if I was to make this, I would add in some pumice and use it for a mechanic soap http://www.evernote.com/l/ANi3_MO-c8tA5aGW_UbkeUSNJJyMujIcs2k/

example of lather between tallow and lard. This first picture is of the tallow soap I linked.
gOcXaFG.jpg


and this is my typical 50% lard recipe. Its lower cleansing than the tallow and it has a higher bubble number. The lather is just denser and creamier.
shvZNvs.jpg
 
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Lol I just washed my hands a little over 10 times just now makeing notes XD
This is bubble production and lather of my first soap.
View attachment 26491
View attachment 26492
Our water is a bit on the hard side, its not hard hard per se but there is calcium deposits if you leave the water on a sufrace too long (days/weeks, like our poor water dispenser). That might be why we have diffrent views as to why tallow is creamy or not XD

I'm going to go tweak this recipe some more and look at another one of my recipe (i have a soap I made that actually pretty drying) and see what I come up with. Like you said you won't know until you try. So I'll be back later and if anyone wants to chime in in the mean time to ahead, I've learned quite a bit already and I'm really happy with that :)
 
You said that you dont like how sugar adds to the toughness of the bubbles. Could you explain what this means. I found your post very informative, thank you. However, im confused about bubbles being tough?? Is the lather scratchy?

Hmm...scratchy....no, not scratchy but tough. but I definitely noticed a less soft and less sumptuous feel to the lather. I suppose it could have been definite as "harder" bubbles. The size of the bubbles was also affected. I noticed the affect far more in a bastille bar (75% olive oil) than other recipes, but still just simply stopped using sugar. Did that answer your question?

My goal for bubblage is no longer quantity; I want rich, shiny, rinseable bubbles. Higher bubblage often means drying and poor rinseability. I don't want a pile of lather sitting in the sink. I use 15 - 20% coconut for those happy large bubbles that initially come from the soap, but I use lard for the thick creamy rich lather that develops after the large bubbles fade. I use 10-15% high oleic oil (safflower/sunflower/olive) to give a shine and clarity to the bubbles. (lard bubbles aren't very shiny)
 
Lol I just washed my hands a little over 10 times just now makeing notes XD
This is bubble production and lather of my first soap.
View attachment 26491
View attachment 26492
Our water is a bit on the hard side, its not hard hard per se but there is calcium deposits if you leave the water on a sufrace too long (days/weeks, like our poor water dispenser). That might be why we have diffrent views as to why tallow is creamy or not XD

I'm going to go tweak this recipe some more and look at another one of my recipe (i have a soap I made that actually pretty drying) and see what I come up with. Like you said you won't know until you try. So I'll be back later and if anyone wants to chime in in the mean time to ahead, I've learned quite a bit already and I'm really happy with that :)

I'm glad to hear this - I think you're going to make a great soaper. As much as we love to talk about our favorite recipes and why we chose them, I hate to think that my (or our) helpfulness inhibits a newbie from experimenting.
I firmly believe that a soaper should feel free to experiment and discover what they like for themselves.
 
I don't find tallow creamy either, the lather is big and fluffy but watery, or maybe lacking in oomph is a better term.

I find lard to be a much creamier, thicker lather even if the bubbles are smaller.
When you mix tallow with lard it gives a very creamy soap that also has bubbles. My recipe above gives a cleansing of 14 and is not at all drying
 

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