HP vs. CP nutrient question

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2.5 year old. but what's wrong with soap on a baby (after a month old)?
um, yes, i did get an answer--a few actually. nothing new. but that wasn't the focus of the conversation anyway.

As you said (and as kchaystack was implying as well): I see the superfat binding with the soap so that less of the oils on the skin is removed which then feels less cleansing.
but STILL this is important. because soap without SF is indeed more harsh.

I don't agree that soap without SF is more harsh.

You should research baby's skin and soap. They have a different alkaline skin to adults and soap can be very harmful to them before about 2.
but then this goes back to my original question here: why do you believe less heat is better for the soap? in what way? if scientifically there is a true reason then i would indeed consider doing CP. this is my point.

It's just my belief that heating stuff isn't great. Read Kevin Dunnes book he probably says something in there. But he tends to ask more questions than answer them. :)

I think originally HP soap came about to speed the curing process.NOT CORRECT MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT RAMBLINGS. Castile doesn't need to wait a year or two to be a lovely soap if it is HP. I am happy to wait for nature to take its course.

Wait till the biochemist wakes up and I'll ask. I'm not scientific I go on feel.
 
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For those of use with skin issues in the family (and we have allergies, psoriasis and eczema) with many Dr. appointments under our belts, we've found that cp or hp soap is not a miracle for these conditions because of what it contains. It's far more about what's not in the soap. That's probably an idea that you're not going to want to hear.

I've been working with a pharmacist and cell biologist to understand what the skin actually does/doesn't absorb. They believe soap is not a treatment or medical tool unless it's about omitting allergen or trigger ingredients. Products like creams and ointments are things that can be designed to deliver chemicals through the skin/phospholipid bilayer in a form that can be utilized in the body instead of trashed as an invader.

no, this is an idea that i do want to hear. this is what kchaystack and the gentleman were both saying too.
however, SFing is not a discussion of what's "in it" as much as neutralizing the situation already. i get it. the hemp seed oil i'd superfat a soap with isn't going to treat cancer (the way it does if you actually ingest it). and would therefore be a waste of money being that there are much cheaper and still just as great fats out there for the soap.
It's just my belief that heating stuff isn't great. Read Kevin Dunnes book he probably says something in there. But he tends to ask more questions than answer them. :)

I think originally HP soap came about to speed the curing process. Castile doesn't need to wait a year or two to be a lovely soap if it is HP. I am happy to wait for nature to take its course.

Wait till the biochemist wakes up and I'll ask. I'm not scientific I go on feel.

hm. so what do you use for two years? water?
 
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It's just my belief that heating stuff isn't great. Read Kevin Dunnes book he probably says something in there. But he tends to ask more questions than answer them. :)

I think originally HP soap came about to speed the curing process. Castile doesn't need to wait a year or two to be a lovely soap if it is HP. I am happy to wait for nature to take its course.

HP does not speed the curing process at all.

It does speed the saponification process. But HP soaps need to cure just as long or maybe even longer as they often use more water than CP soap.
 
HP does not speed the curing process at all.

It does speed the saponification process. But HP soaps need to cure just as long or maybe even longer as they often use more water than CP soap.

tx kchaystack, you took the words right out of my mouth.
 
Wait a second here. I want to clarify some things.

When I said "forget", I meant that the person making the soap (in this case you) would be more likely to forget to add in an oil at trace than if you added it at the beginning. This would make a soap that would have lower superfat than originally intended if you were planning to add your SF amount at trace.

That being said, you are going to have SF in HP and in CP both as long as you calculate it out that way (a calculator can do it). The ONLY difference between HP and CP SF is that you can specifically choose the oil that is left over for HP soap. Both will still have whatever amount you want left. It's just that for HP if you want only Shea butter as your SF, you can choose to omit it during the cook and add it in after saponification is finished and the paste is zap free.

I started with HP soap and I do think it is simpler in a lot of ways. It has more up time but you are able to fix almost any mistake more easily. By adding heat, you can correct any separation that happens or volcanoing right in the vessel. There are no "surprises" once you mold the soap. However, you have more cleanup in involved and the creativity you're allowed is lacking. Everyone has their preference. I also like to do steep water discounts with CP because with the humidity in my area it would take way too long to get the water content low enough. Since you need at least full water in Hp soap, I don't have that ability.
 
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Something else for you to think about - how are you defining mildness? To me, its about pH, not superfat. A well cured bar of soap has a lower pH than it's brand new self.

Also, the cleansing level of the soap makes a difference in how much natural skin oil is disturbed. a 30% coconut oil bar strips more than a 15%. Even with a high superfat - a 30% coconut bar strips the skin, and then coats it with a new but "foreign" oil. I don't find that mild, but I have middle aged skin in a dry environment.

You'll find what works for you by experimenting! Have fun!
 
HP does not speed the curing process at all.

It does speed the saponification process. But HP soaps need to cure just as long or maybe even longer as they often use more water than CP soap.

Yes you are right. I knew I'd get myself into trouble posting in the middle of the night! I think the Syrians etc do it to make the process quicker maybe? Not sure but I think it maybe easier to do large batches that way?

Kevin Dunne just says there is less heat in CP method and he can control or scientifically so his books all about CP.

DH says as a rule of thumb heating something will make it less biologically active. Time will do that too.

I am sticking with my low heat CP method and trying to cultivate my inner artist (hopefully it's somewhere there!)
hm. so what do you use for two years? water?

I can use my CP 100% Castile after 6 months. It's ok. After a year 100% Castile is a hard bar. After 2 years it is a very hard, creamy lovely bar of soap.

A friend gave me handmade soap and I wasn't too impressed so put it away. Found it a year later and started using it. Wow! The difference! Some was 2 year old Castile.Absolutely beautiful soap. That made me a convert to handmade soap and I started making my own (after my friend taught me how).

I have about 12 batches curing. The oldest is 9 months old.
 
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you are patient...but i'd prefer to only wait that long for wine.
I can use my CP 100% Castile after 6 months. It's ok. After a year 100% Castile is a hard bar. After 2 years it is a very hard, creamy lovely bar of soap.

A friend gave me handmade soap and I wasn't too impressed so put it away. Found it a year later and started using it. Wow! The difference! Some was 2 year old Castile.Absolutely beautiful soap. That made me a convert to handmade soap and I started making my own (after my friend taught me how).

I have about 12 batches curing. The oldest is 9 months old.

oh, hello! i was asking you regarding babies! what do you do for two years till they can use soap! lol:)
 
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i was asking you regarding babies! what do you do for two years till they can use soap! lol:)

Just plain water. Actually, we waited only a year (instead of 2) before attempting to use any soap on our son when he was a baby. We got that advice from at least 4 different sources- our midwife, RN's, our naturopathic doctor, and also our son's allopathic pediatrician. It was one of the things they all actually unanimously agreed upon (well, that, plus breast feeding was the best feeding option). LOL

Basically, what we gleaned from them is that the skin of babies is different than adult skin in terms of acid/alkaline balance and what it can/can't tolerate so well, plus babies are still developing their immune systems at that time, of which the skin plays a substantial participatory role. The less you disrupt it by using soap during those developing stages, the better off they are.


Galaxy said:
.....you can specifically choose the oil that is left over for HP soap.

I don't know....color my skeptical, but I'm still in the camp that thinks that the debate on that issue is still open, seeing as how soap is not exactly a static entity, even after cure. As I understand it, chemical changes (albeit small) still go on in the soap to help it maintain stability/equilibrium, especially when bathed with, because of the introduction of water and the minerals contained therein (not to mention its reaction with CO2 in the air). So far, I haven't seen any definitive studies on the subject that prove that the specific oil/fat remains intact after cook, but I sure hope it's something on Dr. Kevin Dunn's 'to do' list. lol

Based on the above, my soap-making philosophy, if you will, is this: Don't agonize so much over specific super-fatting details (i.e., before cook/after cook/before trace/after trace, etc..). Just make your soap by whichever process you enjoy doing the most, fine-tune your formula and calculate for a big or small enough lye-discount/super-fat up front so that the finished/cured soap plays nice with your skin, and don't sweat so much about the rest.........especially whether or not it's best to CP or HP because of the heat involved......because CP soap gets hot, too, if you let it go through the gel stage, which many of us like to do.

Heat issues aside, though, there's also the whole chemical issue of the transformation our ingredients go through from the lye reaction itself. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we sometimes strain at gnats too much. :lol: In the end, I'll wager that working so hard to end up with a specific super-fat is more than likely much ado about nothing.


IrishLass :)
 
Basically, what we gleaned from them is that the skin of babies is different than adult skin in terms of acid/alkaline balance and what it can/can't tolerate so well, plus babies are still developing their immune systems at that time, of which the skin plays a substantial participatory role. The less you disrupt it by using soap during those developing stages, the better off they are.

This is so awesome to hear. Kind of off-topic, but I wonder then if soap should altogether not be used for children who are developing their immune systems (meaning not just babies below a year...up until the age of 9?) Just curious.
 
This is so awesome to hear. Kind of off-topic, but I wonder then if soap should altogether not be used for children who are developing their immune systems (meaning not just babies below a year...up until the age of 9?) Just curious.

I don't know about waiting that long. Kids can get into some REALLY big messes that I am not sure just water would take care of. I know I got into all kinds of grease, went fishing and smelled like a cat's best dream, and being on the family ranch and being around cows and horses...

I am sure I was some kind of walking bio-hazard.
 
I don't know....color my skeptical, but I'm still in the camp that thinks that the debate on that issue is still open, seeing as how soap is not exactly a static entity, even after cure. As I understand it, chemical changes (albeit small) still go on in the soap to help it maintain stability/equilibrium, especially when bathed with, because of the introduction of water and the minerals contained therein (not to mention its reaction with CO2 in the air). So far, I haven't seen any definitive studies on the subject that prove that the specific oil/fat remains intact after cook, but I sure hope it's something on Dr. Kevin Dunn's 'to do' list. lol


You're right to be skeptical. I wrote a response to this question/thought process on here some time ago but I can't find it now. I'm going to try to see if I can find it later but I'll write this for now.

The reason we say that the oils "stay intact" after the cook is that we are saying that they stay as triglycerides and do not become saponifiyed and break up into their constituent fatty acids. However over time even in HP, those triglycerides will break down into their fatty acids simply by reacting with the air and though other mechanisms. In fact, just being in the alkaline nature of "finished" soap may be enough to speed it drastically. Once they are broken down into their constituent fatty acids, they can mingle and exchange with other ones throughout the soap. But I do believe that in HP soap you are retaining those triglycerides in the specific fat of your choice at least for some time longer than for CP (whether that's any longer than the soap cure I have no clue!)

I personally don't care to superfat that way though. Even when I did HP, I used a lye discount. I don't believe the type of oil you SF with has any effect on the end users soap feel. I think people want to believe that adding Shea butter after the cook is better than just getting a mix of left over fatty acids and triglycerides. But, I really don't think it matters!
 
Very lively discussion here.

Just to give you a clue as to where I'm coming from, generationally & culturally speaking: I am a 67 y.o. woman who grew up in California, USA, the firstborn and only daughter with 5 brothers. As a kid, I lived in the forest, played in the dirt, climbed trees, swam in the slough, rode my bike on dirt trails, climbed stacks of baled hay so we could jump off of them, milked cows, rode horses, fed chickens, played with dogs and cats whenever I could and was generally an all-around Tomgirl even after we moved to the suburbs, where I played street football in addition to anything else I could get into that had me changing my dirty clothes so often. And I am the mother of two sons, both very active boys, who built skateboard ramps, tore apart and rebuilt bicycles on a whim; we camped and climbed mountains together, as well as various other things that generally get kids dirty. I am also a retired Registered Nurse. But I graduated from Nursing School in the last century 40 years ago, so my training is not as current as nurses with more recent degrees.

So now that you know that about me, hopefully I can safely ask this question. When did it become taboo to use regular soap on babies? I don't really know. Truthfully, I never heard this before I came to this forum. Of course my nurse's training never addressed this idea and nurseries do continue to wash newborns with more than just water.

But here is an abstract (published in the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health database) which specifically addresses the issue so I will defer to the researchers on that topic. (I retired before this was published, so maybe it is a fairly recent trend, this no soap for infants thing.)

Anyway, of course I understand the question, 'what do you do for 2 years?' as I was surprised to read so many responses about using soap on babies when I first started reading here. I didn't say anything because there just aren't many babies in my circle these days. But I still wondered, which is why I did a little research with my handy dandy search engine.

Would I change the fact that my mom used soap on me and my brothers, or that I used soap on my sons, or even that we used soap on my grandchildren? No, I would not. For one thing, the soap my mom used was not the 'soap' you buy at the stores today, nor do I think the soap I bought when my sons were small was the same as is sold in stores today, either. As far as I can tell, my grandchildren survived regular soap just fine, too. I have no idea if my great-grand-daughter was born before or after these 'newfangled ideas' about soap and infants came about. She is 6 years of age now and I just never heard anything about the use or non-use of soap for her.

Regarding CP vs HP, I do have feelings about both. I started doing HP because it seemed easiest at the time. But I can tell you in the summertime here in Illinois, CP doesn't heat up my house like HP does, so I do prefer doing CP now that the weather has begun to turn Hot and Humid. I do still use HP to re-batch when necessary, but learning to do CP has been fun, too.

I don't think that I find I have more clean-up with HP than I do with CP, really. Most of my weights can be done in the crockpot by just setting it on top of my scale, so I don't really need to use more containers for measuring than when I do CP. In fact when doing multiple colors in CP soap, I have a lot more clean-up to do than when doing a fairly simple HP recipe. But that might be because I don't use disposable plastic cups to mix colors into my soaps. If I did, I could just toss those in the trash. (But that just goes against my nature.) However given the same recipe and a single color soap, I find that the clean-up for CP and HP remains about equal. But maybe that's just me. And also, I've been used to cleaning crockpots almost every day for years anyway because I make all my homemade soups in crockpots (I have 2, one for soap, one for food) and I make soup frequently.

As far as mildness or gentleness to the skin, I really believe it makes no difference what process is used, that it depends totally on the ingredients used in the formula when making the soap.

For me, my skin really does not like high content coconut oil soaps. I have made many different recipes and will continue to try more variations of oil mixtures in my soapmaking journey because I am having so much fun. But so far I have found that my skin likes a bar that is less cleansing and that really has nothing to do with the amount of superfat. It's more about the combination of various fatty acids in the various oils that go into the bar. CP or HP, I'm pretty sure the same formula will come out the same at the end of cure, so I really don't believe the process matters when it comes to what makes my skin feel good about a soap.

I also find that CP offers more opportunities for more colorful and fancier designs in soap. It can be done to some extent in HP, and I have done some, but I am seeing a greater expanse of creative opportunity in CP soapmaking than I have in HP. Plus I really enjoy the process of learning a new and creative skill and the experimentation process involved. That last can be done in all methods of soapmaking, I believe. I have yet to explore much with LS. That's the one that seems really complex and more difficult to me. I have done LS only once. But I may want to create my own liquid shampoos in the future. Maybe when the weather turns cold again, I may try that.
 
Something I'm wondering: Do you think the nutrients in the fats are reduced somewhat during the HP cook? Or does the lye bath (in either CP or HP) "kill" whatever nutrients will inevitably be killed and I shouldn't worry about more loss in the cook.

What nutrients are you referring to exactly, and how does skin physiologically respond to them? Or are you vaguely imagining fairy dust that might be harmed by lye or heat?
 
What nutrients are you referring to exactly, and how does skin physiologically respond to them? Or are you vaguely imagining fairy dust that might be harmed by lye or heat?

What?

kratos_ani_face_041.gif
 

Seriously. At least in real nutrition -- which can still be controversial -- we are talking about specific substances and effects. When did personal care ad copy like "skin-nourishing" become a matter of popular faith? The term has no meaning -- it's essentially gibberish. It refers to some undefined physiological benefits caused by substances nobody can name, for no reason that anybody can explain. It's equivalent to fairy dust.
 
I don't know about waiting that long. Kids can get into some REALLY big messes that I am not sure just water would take care of. I know I got into all kinds of grease, went fishing and smelled like a cat's best dream, and being on the family ranch and being around cows and horses...

I am sure I was some kind of walking bio-hazard.

^^^Yes, this is exactly right. There is a lot of info on the net. You have to weigh the need for clean against the need to preserve the natural babies skin. You have to be sensible. Remembering that a lot of people go far too extreme on the need for clean. :)
 
In day to day cleaning, I use a normal soap on me. If I get really mucky I reach for the stronger turpentine soap. I would never consider using the terps soap all day everyday, just when needed.

If my wee boy gets in a state then I would consider using soap if needed, but not as a matter of course
 

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