Letter to CDC _Raw Shea

Could not decide exactly where to land this topic so obiviously I chose here since this is where I am the most...
I have been giving a lot of thought about using raw butters from West Africa in my products. I really do not see soap with the lye monster, but whipped butters, scrubs etc make me rethink using raw butters. I know Ghana has not been directly named but not all raw butter is from Ghana, which is a country in West Africa. This is hand made in villages where sanitation is not the greatest. Just kinda thinking out loud
I happen to love raw butters and have been using only raw for several yrs, and I have thought about it in passing before but now I am really thinking about it. Hopefully I will hear back to the CDC, but can imagine they are busy putting out fires with the lastest virus to hit here, so I am sure it will be awhile before I hear back. Tried calling but that was pretty futile. Just wonder what others have for thoughts on this

Are you worried about raw butter containing Ebola or another virus? I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

I think regardless of where an ingredient is sourced, there's always potential for contamination especially where human interaction is involved. While not relevant to soaping, I'm sure we've all heard horror stories about restaurant kitchens! Heck how many of us have waded into "debates" of raw vs. pasteurized milk?

That being said, you bring up a very interesting point, about the safety of ingredients in general, the conditions in which they are processed, and stored, but also the conditions in which they are used here - for example, if one works in the kitchen among dirty pots and pans, in the moldy basement or outside with dust and bugs galore, it doesn't matter if the product arrives in near-sterile condition!

I think a good first step would be to understand how microorganisms and how our immune systems "work" - what conditions they need to survive, how they can be transmitted, and to what degree our bodies can protect us.

The next step might be to slosh some stuff on a Petri dish, wait a week and see what happens - but even that's not conclusive because without understanding what we see and why we are seeing it, we might overreact to something that's not even there.

Still, it's a great point, and it's one of the reasons I still haven't waded into the creams and lotions pool yet, and I look forward to the discussion here!

pamielynn said:

Are you worried about raw butter containing Ebola or another virus? I'm not sure if that's what you mean.

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I wondered, myself...and assumed this was the concern.

Raw butters have always been made where "sanitation is not the greatest" (who hasn't picked a bit of random material out of their raw butters?) - I think the transmission risk is vanishingly low for ebola - at least in lab handling protocols I see nothing to indicate it has ever been transmitted other than by close personal contact. If the shipments are irradiated, the risk would drop to near zero, from what I have read. (Note Disclaimer!! I'm not a microbiologist, but I am looking at the Pathogen Safety Data Sheet for ebola to draw these conclusions.)

I would be interested to hear what the CDC response is, if you get one.

LazyUmbrella said:

The next step might be to slosh some stuff on a Petri dish, wait a week and see what happens - but even that's not conclusive because without understanding what we see and why we are seeing it, we might overreact to something that's not even there.

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I work in a university lab, and I would caution against doing this, because of precisely what you state - without understanding what you see, one is likely to overreact to something innocuous and normal. Yeast, staph, molds, etc are all present all around us every day, and will grow enthusiastically on agar (and you'd need to use the correct agar to get what you wanted to check for). They are important to our health, in good ways, but look unsettling when you see them growing on an agar plate (we're just doing a soil lab that uses normal potting soil, and lawn soil, and grows a fantastic array of micro-organisms that look freaky, but are present all around us and basically harmless.)

Your plate would definitely show growth but if you don't know what it is growing, you're no better off.

Also, if you DID grow something unsavoury, you now have an entire petri dish of the stuff...and autoclaves are not common household items (they are used to safely dispose of pathogenic materials in labs).

LazyUmbrella said:

I think a good first step would be to understand how microorganisms and how our immune systems "work" - what conditions they need to survive, how they can be transmitted, and to what degree our bodies can protect us.

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THIS I can get behind 100%, though!

Yes i was thinking the Ebola for the most part. Yep, I know how and where butters are made as far as raw butters and that is what has taken me on this path. I am not trying to be a scare monger which I am not, but I was just thinking this could be another avenue of some of these virus's coming into our country. I am not a very paranoid person but was just thinking. As general public, that does not have lab connections or medical, all the info we can get is from news which is very far from reliable which is why I sent an inquiry to CDC

cmzaha said:

Yes i was thinking the Ebola for the most part. Yep, I know how and where butters are made as far as raw butters and that is what has taken me on this path. I am not trying to be a scare monger which I am not, but I was just thinking this could be another avenue of some of these virus's coming into our country. I am not a very paranoid person but was just thinking. As general public, that does not have lab connections or medical, all the info we can get is from news which is very far from reliable which is why I sent an inquiry to CDC

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publicly available..

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php

and from here http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/environmental-infection-control-in-hospitals.html

" There is no epidemiologic evidence of Ebolavirus transmission via either the environment or fomites that could become contaminated during patient care (e.g., bed rails, door knobs, laundry)."

(ie there's no evidence it is transmissible, if you don't contact the body fluid directly)

still will be interested in what the CDC has to say.

Honestly, I think this is highly highly transmissible. I think we (they) don't know everything about it. I think you have brought up a truly interesting topic of discussion. I didn't even *think* about this....and now....I am definitely "thinking" about the purchase of goods from there. Thank you for bringing this up and opening the door for discussion. Would love to hear the response you receive!

In specific situations, it is highly transmissible, I agree. I agree that epidemiologists and virologists are still learning.
The rest......I guess we wait to see if CDC responds (but...if you don't think "they" know...)
Avoiding the butters is right up there with airport screening for me, in terms of risk/prevention...not that useful, but not that concerning as the risk is still very low.
I feel confident that these sorts of vectors would have been carefully considered prior to import.
If we're going to discuss it, I think all aspects should be considered, instead of having to agree with each other in order to participate. It IS worth a discussion, and everyone's risk tolerance will vary. I would not want to suggest someone do something that makes them uncomfortable regarding their product.

oof...ok...I'm trying to edit and re-edit my posts so that my tone is ok, and I am not at all good at it (I have struggled with this in written communication all my life, and don't seem to be able to figure out what I do wrongly) so....I am going to leave this thread so that I don't unintentionally offend anyone in it.

I am, truly, interested in whatever response CDC might offer, though.

CanaDawn said:

oof...ok...I'm trying to edit and re-edit my posts so that my tone is ok, and I am not at all good at it (I have struggled with this in written communication all my life, and don't seem to be able to figure out what I do wrongly) so....I am going to leave this thread so that I don't unintentionally offend anyone in it.

I am, truly, interested in whatever response CDC might offer, though.

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I enjoyed your answers. Growing something in a petri dish, which I remember doing in High School, is not something I will take on not know what I am looking for. Unfortunetly when I sold my beauty shop the autoclave unit unfortunetly went with it. Who knew I would want one again some day. BTW I found a cricket leg floating in my melted raw shea today. Nope, it did not come from my house, that I can assure you.

Yikes a cricket leg! I was talking to my sister a few days ago about possible health issues considering Ebola with the raw shea butter that I purchase directly from Ghana. I may be over reacting since Ghana is not in the middle of the Ebola crisis, but considering the shea butter is cooked outside in the heat, I was worried enough to put off ordering any more for the time being. As Carolyn stated with the lye monster soap is less of a concern, but I also have found that my soap is nice without the shea. I am very interested to hear the response you receive from your letter.

ok...thanks Carolyn.

OliveOil2 - 30 min at 60C inactivates ebola. That it is cooked would make me LESS worried, not more.

from the link I posted above "Ebola are moderately thermolabile and can be inactivated by heating for 30 minutes to 60 minutes at 60°C, boiling for 5 minutes, or gamma irradiation (1.2 x106 rads to 1.27 x106 rads) combined with 1% glutaraldehyde"

http://www.sophim-sheabutter.com/manufacture.html

is this not a typical shea process? Is it actually heated in other processing methods?

I know that heating will make it safer, I just had some concerns because I have seen the conditions that the shea butter is processed in. I receive amazing butter that is pretty much free from rocks, and twigs. I do gell my soap and it gets pretty hot for a couple of hours. I wasn't extremely worried, just came up when I was thinking about how we are going to make sure the ebola virus doesn't spread to other countries.

CanaDawn said:

ok...thanks Carolyn.

OliveOil2 - 30 min at 60C inactivates ebola. That it is cooked would make me LESS worried, not more.

from the link I posted above "Ebola are moderately thermolabile and can be inactivated by heating for 30 minutes to 60 minutes at 60°C, boiling for 5 minutes, or gamma irradiation (1.2 x106 rads to 1.27 x106 rads) combined with 1% glutaraldehyde"

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Thankyou for the info. I had bookmarks for articles from CDC that I am going to read tonight after I get my soaps done. Daughter had a severe asthmatic episode so was at her house all day waiting to see if I needed to take her to emergency. She is like a little kid and won't tell me how bad she is unless I go see for myself. She is 40 so she should know better than now

cmzaha said:

Thankyou for the info. I had bookmarks for articles from CDC that I am going to read tonight after I get my soaps done. Daughter had a severe asthmatic episode so was at her house all day waiting to see if I needed to take her to emergency. She is like a little kid and won't tell me how bad she is unless I go see for myself. She is 40 so she should know better than now

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omi! That's a little anxious-making! I hope she's ok now and you didn't have to turn up the Mom-factor too much!

LazyUmbrella said:

Heck how many of us have waded into "debates" of raw vs. pasteurized milk?

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Oh, yeah!

[quote}That being said, you bring up a very interesting point, about the safety of ingredients in general, the conditions in which they are processed, and stored, but also the conditions in which they are used here... [/QUOTE] Absolutely. And it's an interesting topic.

I think a good first step would be to understand how microorganisms and how our immune systems "work" - what conditions they need to survive, how they can be transmitted, and to what degree our bodies can protect us.

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My main class I teach is Pathogenic Micro (which covers these areas). It's a big field, but pretty specialized. I don't recommend everyday folks getting into this because, as CanaDawn mentioned, you don't want to multiply anything pathogenic a trillion fold overnight.

Fat and oil is really quite a hostile environment for bacteria and viruses (much less so for fungi, but it still needs water around). Ebola, like amny animal viruses, is a coated virus, meaning it has a cell membrane like a cell. This makes it quite sensitive to fats and oils, and at least somewhat vulnerable to alcohol hand sanitizers. It's extremely unlikely that Ebola could be transmitted via shea after all that time. If an oozing Ebola patient had recently touched the shea just prior to you using it, that might be a different story. But hey, Feynman taught us to never say never.

lionprincess00 said:

Honestly, I think this is highly highly transmissible. I think we (they) don't know everything about it. I think you have brought up a truly interesting topic of discussion. I didn't even *think* about this....and now....I am definitely "thinking" about the purchase of goods from there. Thank you for bringing this up and opening the door for discussion. Would love to hear the response you receive!

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It is highly transmissible, but it still has to be transferred by direct contact with (the copious) fluids of an infected patient. If proper protocols are followed, medical staff should be perfectly safe, but as I get to be the one to start training docs and nurses in their first patho experience, it's really tough to break all the habits that we have (particularly touching the face and hair). I actually have a student from Ghana in my class this semester, and she says they aren't panicking about it, just avoiding travel and people that have traveled. And overall, we've been quite aware of Ebola and the risks, etc. The real problem is that everybody is so CHEAP, they refuse to do the proper training that is required. It's kind of a hiccup here in the US, that will quickly go away as folks get properly trained.

CanaDawn said:

ok...thanks Carolyn.

OliveOil2 - 30 min at 60C inactivates ebola. That it is cooked would make me LESS worried, not more.

from the link I posted above "Ebola are moderately thermolabile and can be inactivated by heating for 30 minutes to 60 minutes at 60°C, boiling for 5 minutes, or gamma irradiation (1.2 x106 rads to 1.27 x106 rads) combined with 1% glutaraldehyde"

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LOL! I think ordering a gamma irradiator would peak the interest of the NRC (and the FBI). Pass on the glutaraldehyde, too. I've seen someone that glued two fingers together with the stuff, then they had to basically rip the layers of skin apart. It wasn't pretty.

The other stats are interesting. I'll have to mention them in class - the nurses will be interested in particular.

sassanellat said:

LOL! I think ordering a gamma irradiator would peak the interest of the NRC (and the FBI). Pass on the glutaraldehyde, too. I've seen someone that glued two fingers together with the stuff, then they had to basically rip the layers of skin apart. It wasn't pretty.
.

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LOL I had forgotten that little feature of gluteraldehyde....the Cookbook for Geeks actually uses it to glue various protein foods together - sort of riskier than your average BBQ.

and yes, the gamma irradiator would be a bit...overkill (But I was thinking of irradiation at the various borders)

CanaDawn said:

LOL I had forgotten that little feature of gluteraldehyde....the Cookbook for Geeks actually uses it to glue various protein foods together - sort of riskier than your average BBQ.

and yes, the gamma irradiator would be a bit...overkill (But I was thinking of irradiation at the various borders)

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It was really disgusting. :Kitten Love:

The latest on Ebola suggests that, under optimal conditions, the virus can live for up to six days, but it's sensitive to UV and drying. On dry surfaces, it only lives a few hours, or a couple minutes in sunlight.

Okay, so even leaving diseases out of it, you can keep your raw butters, all full of rocks and twigs and insect parts! Yikes.

The Efficacious Gentleman said:

Okay, so even leaving diseases out of it, you can keep your raw butters, all full of rocks and twigs and insect parts! Yikes.

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*evil grin* now may not be the time to point out that food processing companies work to a set "bug parts in your product" limit...

Gah!

I think it would be interesting to know just how refined the refined products are and what the processing regulations are regarding quality and so on. I don't think that a leg would be so bad after all