Authentic New York City Bagels

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Also known as "real bagels," or simply "bagels." :)

Does this subject interest anybody?

There's much conflicting information. Some is close to correct, some is all wrong. There actually used to be a union of bagel makers, which convinced me that there is truly a correct way, known in certain circles. It took multiple attempts and a lot of research to figure out how the brotherhood does it.

The recipe and procedure are rather precise, but perhaps perfect for soap makers. The result is the real thing.

My written version is sketchy but I can flesh it out if there is interest.
 
I miss NYC bagels so much. I went to Columbia for undergrad, and when I moved back to the South I was appalled by what passed for a "bagel" here. I'd love the recipe and procedure.
 
I know a couple pf people here posted about pretzels and some kind of croissant done with a lye bath. They might have done bagels...
 
I know a couple pf people here posted about pretzels and some kind of croissant done with a lye bath. They might have done bagels...

Guilty as charged and completely unrepentant as far as using a lye bath to make my authentic German pretzels (laugenbretzel) and laugen-croissants ( :mrgreen: ), but as strange as it seems- what with all the bread-baking I do- I've never tried my hand at making any type of a bagel (yet).

After reading this quote from the OP: "The recipe and procedure are rather precise, but perhaps perfect for soap makers. The result is the real thing."(underling mine), I put 2 and 2 together and figured that a lye-bath most likely might be involved in making real New York bagels, so I did a search using the parameters of 'New York bagels' and 'lye', and ran across this gem on a sodium hydroxide site of all places: http://sodium-hydroxide.com/lye-bagels-the-story-of-how-polish-dough-came-to-rule-american-palates/

Is the info in the provided link anything close to your version, TOMH?


ETA: Found another bagel/lye link: http://io9.com/5907982/drop-the-base-to-make-bagels-more-delectable

IrishLass :)
 
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One of my fond memories...I grew up in NYC in a 'burb...there was a local bagel shop that I'm sure would not pass a health inspection BUT....they made the real deal. Chewy being the main attribute ....40 years later it's all about an approximation of what that store produced....I'm sure everyone will agree....a bagel is not a kaiser roll.....I'd love the recipe!
 
Well, the more I read on the net about what distinguishes a New York bagel from other kind of bagels, is that boiling the bagels in a lye bath before baking, plus using a really stiff dough is the secret (much as it is with laugenbretzel). These are the things that will give you a chewy bagel with a flavorful, crisp, brown crust.

I ran into a handful of cooking and baking forums in my search where some claimed it was the Brooklyn N.Y. water that distinguished them from other bagels, but then another NY native or 2 would chime in with a resounding 'Jane, you ignorant s***!' Well, okay, maybe not really as severe as Billy Murray's character on SNL's 'Point/Counterpoint', lol, but more like an adamant 'No!', and then they went on to assert that it had nothing to do with the water, but instead with the lye added to the water when boiling the bagels before baking.

Like I said, I've never made bagels before, but based on my experience with making laugenbretzel, I am here to say that the lye bath (and using a really stiff dough) makes all the difference in the world, and clearly separates the wannabees from the real deal.

I've made lots of wannabe pretzels in the past with a looser/higher hydrated bread dough and the baking soda bath that made nice enough pretzel-like bread, but they don't even begin to hold a candle to my pretzels made with the lye bath. Lye, being much more alkaline than baking soda, is able to work a certain kind of magic on the surface of the dough that mere baking soda just cannot achieve.

Based on all the above, I have no doubt that using a boiling lye bath before baking in conjunction with a stiff dough is just what the doctor ordered. At least that's how I would approach it.

IrishLass :)
 
OK, TOMH, you are going to have to cough up your recipe. I am not a bagel fiend (though would kill for the best way to cure corned beef, I am on record as not being being anything close to veg-of-any-kind) but am curious now.
 
One of my fond memories...I grew up in NYC in a 'burb...there was a local bagel shop that I'm sure would not pass a health inspection BUT....they made the real deal. Chewy being the main attribute ....40 years later it's all about an approximation of what that store produced....I'm sure everyone will agree....a bagel is not a kaiser roll.....I'd love the recipe!

For me it was Bagel Oasis in Queens. It survives (still 24/7!), and there are still quite a number of bagel shops that make the distinct product from your memory. That is what inspired my quest, and be assured that I did not settle for an approximation. It is possible to make those at home.

The chewiness comes from high-gluten flour with over 14% protein content. Bakeries can get it, but you won't find it in the supermarket. A good bread flour like King Arthur can suffice with 12.7% protein, but I recommend ordering the correct ingredient. I will include information about that. All-purpose flour will not work.

Is the info in the provided link anything close to your version, TOMH?

I regret choosing those words because I now realize that, in the grip of a steel-trap mind, they inexorably lead to the conclusion you came to. So, well done, yet I must tell you that it's not the case. There are those who claim bagels are boiled in lye and others who suggest a sweetened water is used. Such misconceptions and speculations explain why recognizable NYC bagels become so scarce as you move away from ground zero.

The characteristic reddish hue and degree of browning, as well as the slight snap to the crust, that characterize a New York bagel are perfectly accomplished with approximately 18 hours of retarded fermentation. Without that, they will tend to be pale and off-color. The boiling is done in plain water.

OK, TOMH, you are going to have to cough up your recipe. I am not a bagel fiend (though would kill for the best way to cure corned beef, I am on record as not being being anything close to veg-of-any-kind) but am curious now.

Sorry for the delay, but I hope to get the instructions together late this evening.

I might add that this is not my recipe, but in a sense THE recipe. It comes from descriptions published decades ago, based on knowledge going back even further. Not to say that there aren't authentic producers who do it differently, but those variations are based on an firm understanding of the variables in this method. Almost every part is done for an important reason that contributes to creating the characteristic product.
 
Well, the more I read on the net about what distinguishes a New York bagel from other kind of bagels, is that boiling the bagels in a lye bath before baking, plus using a really stiff dough is the secret (much as it is with laugenbretzel). These are the things that will give you a chewy bagel with a flavorful, crisp, brown crust.

The lye bath would probably cause them to brown too much, as well as imparting a bit more of a pretzel color and flavor. When I was pondering the dilemma of the boiling water, I thought to myself that if there is any way to do it with plain water and save all the hassle and expense, that is what any baker in their right mind would do. Since my sources seem pretty reliable and the results don't seem to require or benefit from a lye bath, I'm confident this information is mistaken. Unfortunately for the quality of the product, some producers have switched away even from the plain water and are using steam-injected ovens.

The stiff dough is correct. This is one of the stiffest, with 50-55% hydration. I think of it more as 52-54%.

I ran into a handful of cooking and baking forums in my search where some claimed it was the Brooklyn N.Y. water that distinguished them from other bagels, but then another NY native or 2 would chime in with a resounding 'Jane, you ignorant s***!' Well, okay, maybe not really as severe as Billy Murray's character on SNL's 'Point/Counterpoint', lol, but more like an adamant 'No!', and then they went on to assert that it had nothing to do with the water, but instead with the lye added to the water when boiling the bagels before baking.

And they would both be wrong. The thing about Brooklyn water seems to have been perpetuated by people who simply didn't know how to make bagels...or were perhaps trying to discourage competition? There are a few bagel bakeries in the country who adjust mineral content to mimic the water, which is amazing. Those truly are ignorant sluts (men or women).

Based on all the above, I have no doubt that using a boiling lye bath before baking ... is just what the doctor ordered. At least that's how I would approach it.

Understandable! You are a hammering expert and it looks like a nail. ;-)
 
The slight blistering (desirable) is also from the retarded fermentation.

IMG_20150328_232432.jpg
 
I ran into a handful of cooking and baking forums in my search where some claimed it was the Brooklyn N.Y. water that distinguished them from other bagels, but then another NY native or 2 would chime in with a resounding 'Jane, you ignorant s***!' Well, okay, maybe not really as severe as Billy Murray's character on SNL's 'Point/Counterpoint', lol, but more like an adamant 'No!', and then they went on to assert that it had nothing to do with the water, but instead with the lye added to the water when boiling the bagels before baking.

And ...

And they would both be wrong. The thing about Brooklyn water seems to have been perpetuated by people who simply didn't know how to make bagels...or were perhaps trying to discourage competition?

I grew up in New York. I grew up back when Enteman's only shipped to the local supermarkets once/week and you had to get there ON TIME to get a crumb cake for Sunday's brunch.

I've heard the water thing too. I participated in a bake-off where some pizza crusts were tested side-by-side, the only difference being the water. For those that do not know, NYC water comes from Upstate NY, from as far as 125 miles away. It is unfiiltered, which surprises a lot of people. When I used to travel with my parents up the Turnpike you could still see the old wooden aqueducts up on the mountains.

Back to the pizza - side by side, using only fresh mozzarella ("mutz"), fresh basil and sliced tomatoes, the slices were blind judged. I don't remember the score but there were 20 judges, I want to say 10 pies with each of the two waters, and the crust made with the NYC water was voted better by a margin my mathematician friend told me was "statistically significant."

So .. do you need Brooklyn water to make Bagels? I don't know. Maybe there's a lot less water in there than there is pizza dough. I do know that yeast behaves differently with different water profiles. I know that to an extent a beer mash will behave/react differently to different waters. I suspect that if you followed traditional steps it would be a little slice of home no matter what water you use.

From what I remember, bagels are boiled but I don't remember there being lye in the water - that would definitely make a sort of pretzel. Probably not bad but not a bagel.
 
"Those truly are ignorant sluts (men or women)." You are dating yourself, TMOH! Those who are too young to have watched SNL in the early 80's will not get this one :)

That is a beautiful bagel, though. Proving that if you live long enough, you will say things that you would never think you would have reason to say!
 
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"Those truly are ignorant sluts (men or women)." You are dating yourself, TMOH! Those who are too young to have watched SNL in the early 80's will not get this one :)

Heh, I must point out it was IrishLass in her previous post who made that reference, which I believe leaves me safely in the indeterminate age zone -- Jane!

So .. do you need Brooklyn water to make Bagels? I don't know. Maybe there's a lot less water in there than there is pizza dough. I do know that yeast behaves differently with different water profiles. I know that to an extent a beer mash will behave/react differently to different waters. I suspect that if you followed traditional steps it would be a little slice of home no matter what water you use.

I used to brew beer and I know about the effects of minerals on that, so I'm sure you're right that there is a more wide-ranging effect on foods. But as an explanation for difficulty finding good bagels away from NYC, it's not terribly convincing. Having made some batches that missed the mark, I am confident other factors are much more significant. Once I knew how, I made good bagels in Brooklyn, on Long Island and with Poland Spring.
 
"Heh, I must point out it was IrishLass in her previous post who made that reference, which I believe leaves me safely in the indeterminate age zone -- Jane!"

In bagel terms, indeterminate, indescherminate. 'Nuff said. I welcome you to the "Jane, you ignorant slut" club, no matter how old you are :)

You still have to come up with the recipe, though, evader.
 
How to Make Authentic New York Bagels

INGREDIENTS:

High-gluten flour, 500 g
Water, 265 g
Salt, 10 g
Instant yeast, 4 g (or cake yeast, 10 g)
Malt powder, non-diastatic 20 g

NOTES:

The water amount represents 53% hydration in baker's measure, but variations within the 52-54% range (260-270 g) aren't very significant. If the air is dry for instance, you can add 5 g water to prevent the dough surface from dehydrating too quickly.

Always measure the salt. It can significantly affect the consistency of the dough.

This recipe uses "instant" dry yeast or fresh cake yeast, either of which can be added directly to the dry ingredients. It does not use active dry yeast (typically what you see in packets at the supermarket), which is ordinarily proofed in warm water.

Malt flavor, while not essential, is a common characteristic of New York bagels. You can use the powder or a tablespoon of malt syrup. Otherwise just use 20 g granulated sugar.

I recommend ordering "Sir Lancelot" high-gluten flour, non-diastatic malt powder and SAF Red instant yeast from King Arthur Flour. They have an online store, great products, and they ship internationally.

METHOD:

1 - Mix the flour, salt, yeast and malt powder together in a bowl.

2 - Add the water (room temp or cooler) and any other liquid ingredient to the bowl. Mix, stretch and fold to incorporate everything into a ball of dough. It will start off as a very ragged mass and it may not seem that there's enough water to bring it all together, but there is. When it's lumpy but cohesive and you've wiped the last of the dry ingredients with the dough, remove it to a surface suitable for kneading.

3 - A lot of vigorous kneading is necessary to develop the gluten in this dough. It's about 7 minutes if you have a sturdy enough mixer or at least 10 minutes by hand (about 225 to 250 kneads). After kneading, Wrap loosely in plastic and rest for 5 minutes. Unwrap and give it a few more kneads to obtain a silky-smooth ball of dough.

4 - Cut the dough in half and continue doing so until you have 8 pieces. Place a damp towel over the dough pieces and rest for an additional 5 minutes. Alternatively, if you are good at portioning dough, you can cut into 6 pieces, which is closer to typical bagel shop size.

5 - Line a sheet pan with parchment and oil the parchment very lightly with a paper towel.

6 - Roll a dough ball into a cylinder about 9 inches long. Use both hands in a backwards and forwards motion to roll and evenly stretch out the dough. Drape the dough over your 4 fingers held out flat. Slightly moisten one of the surfaces with water and bring the dough ends together beneath your fingers (there should be over an inch of overlap). Roll back and forth beneath your fingers on the work surface for a firm attachment, then place the dough ring on the baking sheet. Repeat for each piece of dough to form 6 or 8 bagels.

7 - Cover the baking sheet loosely with plastic (the dough needs to be able to expand) and make a few small holes to decrease water condensation. Place the bagels in a very cold refrigerator for 16 to 20 hours. They will rise somewhat despite the cold. The amount of time is quite important, with about 18 hours being ideal.

8 - Preheat the oven to 260 C (500 F). Remove the bagels from the fridge and allow to sit for 15 minutes. In the meantime, heat water for boiling them. The pot doesn't need to be deep, but it should be wide enough to comfortably float half your bagels at once. Note that the bagels will expand a little.

9 - In two batches, place the bagels in the water and gently simmer for 90 seconds on each side. Remove by putting a mixing spoon handle through the hole and place back on the baking sheet in the same orientation (top and bottom) as before. Work fairly quickly so the first batch isn't sitting around a long time while the second batch boils.

10 - Place the boiled bagels in the oven and bake for 14 to 16 minutes. Watch carefully so they don't burn or get too dark. Adjust the oven temp in the future if they take more or less time.

11 - Remove to a cooling rack for 15 to 20 minutes.

TOPPINGS:

Poppy seeds, sesame seeds, pretzel salt, garlic or onions can be added right after boiling the bagels. Use dehydrated chopped garlic soaked in a small amount of water. To prepare onions, dice into short pieces, mix with generous salt, and wait 5 minutes or more for the pieces to begin wilting. Rinse, drain, and squeeze dry by the handful before using.
 
I used to brew beer and I know about the effects of minerals on that, so I'm sure you're right that there is a more wide-ranging effect on foods. But as an explanation for difficulty finding good bagels away from NYC, it's not terribly convincing.
No argument there ... maybe the last 2% but so far 2% has not been my issue.

Thanks for sharing the recipe! I'm going to have to set aside a weekend for this.

I attached a printable PDF version in case people want to go that direction. Dad always said if you borrow tools you give them back in better condition than when you got them. This is my way of doing that. :)

View attachment How to Make Authentic New York Bagels.pdf
 
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