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MullersLaneFarm said:
It is the case though, gloopygloop .... CP soap, especially if it has gone through the gel stage, is just as safe to use as HP soap. CP soap that has had gel retarded by placing the mold in a cold area to prevent gel will take a couple days to reach full saponification and be safe to use.

HP definitely requires the 4-6 weeks (and many time 6-8 weeks) 'cure' time to obtain the crystalline structure needed for a long lasting, well lathering bar of soap. Many CP soap makers discount the liquid in their lye solution reducing the time needed even more.
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Sorry I dont agree here, yes perhaps CP after full gel may indeed be pretty much like HP but I absolutely dont find that HP made correctly which is zap free has to have 4 to 6 weeks cure time. I do think its better after maturing for a bit as in 4 to 6 weeks and the science may indeed be totally correct regarding the crystalline structure but HP soap made correctly is useable a few days to a week after making, well I find it so.
 
A statement is often made by many people that CP soap is not SAFE to use for WEEKS. Frankly, it doesn't stand up to real life experience. Anyone who has made soap by both methods and knows how to zap test and do simple hand washing tests can easily learn this is incorrect.

The difference between CP and HP soap to be fully saponified and SAFE to use is a few days at most, not weeks.

The time for either CP or HP soap to be really GOOD to use is 4 to 8 weeks in general for the best lather, the most mildness, and improved longevity.

A person doesn't get a bye on the chemistry of curing soap just by using an HP method. Again, this fact is very easy to prove by any soapmaker who takes the time to do simple easy tests.

If a person wants to use soap shortly after it's made, then by all means do so, but it doesn't make any real difference whether the soap is made by HP or CP. Pick one and head for the shower.
 
DeeAnna said:
A statement is often made by many people that CP soap is not SAFE to use for WEEKS. Frankly, it doesn't stand up to real life experience. Anyone who has made soap by both methods and knows how to zap test and do simple hand washing tests can easily learn this is incorrect.

The difference between CP and HP soap to be fully saponified and SAFE to use is a few days at most, not weeks.

The time for either CP or HP soap to be really GOOD to use is 4 to 8 weeks in general for the best lather, the most mildness, and improved longevity.

A person doesn't get a bye on the chemistry of curing soap just by using an HP method. Again, this fact is very easy to prove by any soapmaker who takes the time to do simple easy tests.

If a person wants to use soap shortly after it's made, then by all means do so, but it doesn't make any real difference whether the soap is made by HP or CP. Pick one and head for the shower.
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I wholeheartedly agree and think I was trying to say this in a not so articulate way, that is nice and clear thank you. I like my soap better after a few weeks but I have often used in within a few days and it still nice, but gets nicer and nicer after time!
 
Laurabolyard said:
Agreed, with each batch I've kept and used the 'scraps' right away, to be sure they're zap-free, And I don't mind giving it away less cured, I've told them that it will get harder with time. as long as I know that I'm not going to ZAP my friends, I'm good!!
I have no intention of ever selling, I'm just wanting natural bars for myself and loving the experimentation.
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curing is about way more than soap getting hard, it also gets milder and lathers better with a good cure. You might be happy using young soap but the people you gift it with may not.

Young soap irritates my skin, if you gifted me with a bar of your young HP, I would probably never want another.
Not because its bad but because it would be harsh to me and it would make me thinks its bad.

You are new so you have nothing to compare with yet but you will see a difference in a few weeks.
Once your first batch cures for 6 weeks, make another batch exactly the same. Compare the old to the new, bet you'll be surprised.
 
gloopygloop said:
i actually dont find this to be the case, my soap is quite hard enough and could be used within a couple of days which I have done on occasions and its been perfectly fine, that little bit extra water does tend to evaporate off with HP I think. It will depend of course upon the recipe and I will say that the soap will definitily improve with more time as all soap tends to do, but it certainly does not require the 4 to 6 weeks "cure time" to be safely used as CP does.
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Just because it can be used doesn't mean it should. CP can be used after 24 hours. Once there's no zap both are done. Doesn't mean it's ready to be used. There are still structural changes that take place over time. Hardness doesn't mean cured.

You are certainly free to use it.

But, it's pretty well documented that both require a good cure.

There are numerous posts with the science behind it here, I just can't find it at the moment.
 
shunt2011 said:
Just because it can be used doesn't mean it should. CP can be used after 24 hours. Once there's no zap both are done. Doesn't mean it's ready to be used. There are still structural changes that take place over time. Hardness doesn't mean cured.

You are certainly free to use it.

But, it's pretty well documented that both require a good cure.

There are numerous posts with the science behind it here, I just can't find it at the moment.
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As I said I dont find my week old soap harsh on me, I dont sell so that is not an issue for me, I have some friends to whom I have given week old soap as they were completely out of soap and their feed back was that is was wonderful.

I agree that all the science is there and I am sure the documentation says this but I dont find week old HP harsh just better after longer time. I do have very dry itchy skin and a well formulated bar for me with its emollient butters and not more than 20% CO feels fine on my skin after a week with no irritation, but its even nicer lathers even better with time. I would not personally say therefore that HP soap cannot be used until after 4 to 6 weeks cure time just that its a much better soap after that time. I talk about HP as its what I do CP as DeeAnna said is no different and I am sure that is correct.
Just my humble opinion.
 
Hmmm... I'm only 6 batches new, and I haven't yet taken one to the shower, but as I said, I leave the scraps by the sink to test and use. I may take my ONE cp to the shower now, and compare it in a few weeks. I've been afraid of it thus far (it's about a week) and have been moving it with gloves, lol! I guess that isn't necessarily any longer!
I've given to some friends so that I can keep space and have told them that it will get better with time. They obviously know that I am new to this, and pass info as I learn it.

I guess it's going to be tough, experimenting with oils, if I'm not going to know how they behave for that amount of time!
 
I agree with Obsidian, and can absolutely tell a fully cured bar from a young bar of soap. After you've been doing this a while, you just know. You certainly can feel the difference between a week old bar (no matter the recipe or who made it) from a fully cured bar.

Laurabolyard, there is nothing wrong with using the scraps and end pieces for yourself, and you can take one into the shower, but as you progress in your soapmaking you will experience and learn so much more - I would challenge you in a year to 18 months from now, to look back at this post and see how far you've come. You will be amazed at the things you've learned and the progress you've made, and how what you thought about young soaps has completely changed and flipped, just due to your own experience.
 
jcandleattic said:
I agree with Obsidian, and can absolutely tell a fully cured bar from a young bar of soap. After you've been doing this a while, you just know. You certainly can feel the difference between a week old bar (no matter the recipe or who made it) from a fully cured bar.

Laurabolyard, there is nothing wrong with using the scraps and end pieces for yourself, and you can take one into the shower, but as you progress in your soapmaking you will experience and learn so much more - I would challenge you in a year to 18 months from now, to look back at this post and see how far you've come. You will be amazed at the things you've learned and the progress you've made, and how what you thought about young soaps has completely changed and flipped, just due to your own experience.
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Thank you, I absolutely agree and look forward to every minute of the learning process, that will be, by far, my favorite part. I just love to research everything and experiment! I look forward to the learning process and am thankful that this forum is here!
 
gloopygloop said:
I dont find week old HP harsh just better after longer time. ......... but its even nicer lathers even better with time........ I would not personally say therefore that HP soap cannot be used until after 4 to 6 weeks cure time just that its a much better soap after that time.
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Gloopygloop, you and the others actually agree on this topic more than you might be thinking. :) In your above statements you are pretty much saying the same thing as what DeeAnna and the others have been emphasizing in regards to HP soap benefitting from a 4 to 8 week cure just as with CP.

Many of us here (including me) are able to use our HP and our fully gelled, zap-free CP soap right out of the mold. Since you haven't made CP yet, you have not experienced for yourself whether that is the case or not, but as one who does both HP and CP, I can assure you it is very true. I'm able to safely use my freshly unmolded CP batches that have gone through the gel stage just the same as my freshly unmolded HP batches....... But the fact that the others are trying to point out (and what your above statements seem to be agreeing with) is that 'safe to use' doesn't necessarily = 'optimal to use'.

I think that what is going on here is a classic misunderstanding of 'saponification' vs 'cure'. They are two very different things:

A soap (whether HP or CP) that has completed the saponification phase will be zap-free (unless one over-measured their lye), and be perfectly safe to use.........

While a soap that has completed the cure stage will not only be zap-free and safe to use, but also bubblier, milder, have a lower pH, and be harder and last longer than a soap that has only/merely completed the saponification stage.

While the saponification stage takes a short time to complete, the cure stage takes much longer because it takes time, along with reaction with the CO2 in the air and evaporation for the crystalline structure to be able to develop and organize itself into a more stable configuration. As with fine wine or cheese, soap gets better and better with age.

I believe what the others are trying to say is, 'Why settle for merely 'safe to use' when you can wait for 'awesome to use?'! :)


IrishLass :)
 
IrishLass said:
Gloopygloop, you and the others actually agree on this topic more than you might be thinking. :) In your above statements you are pretty much saying the same thing as what DeeAnna and the others have been emphasizing in regards to HP soap benefitting from a 4 to 8 week cure just as with CP.

Many of us here (including me) are able to use our HP and our fully gelled, zap-free CP soap right out of the mold. Since you haven't made CP yet, you have not experienced for yourself whether that is the case or not, but as one who does both HP and CP, I can assure you it is very true. I'm able to safely use my freshly unmolded CP batches that have gone through the gel stage just the same as my freshly unmolded HP batches....... But the fact that the others are trying to point out (and what your above statements seem to be agreeing with) is that 'safe to use' doesn't necessarily = 'optimal to use'.

I think that what is going on here is a classic misunderstanding of 'saponification' vs 'cure'. They are two very different things:

A soap (whether HP or CP) that has completed the saponification phase will be zap-free (unless one over-measured their lye), and be perfectly safe to use.........

While a soap that has completed the cure stage will not only be zap-free and safe to use, but also bubblier, milder, have a lower pH, and be harder and last longer than a soap that has only/merely completed the saponification stage.

While the saponification stage takes a short time to complete, the cure stage takes much longer because it takes time, along with reaction with the CO2 in the air and evaporation for the crystalline structure to be able to develop and organize itself into a more stable configuration. As with fine wine or cheese, soap gets better and better with age.

I believe what the others are trying to say is, 'Why settle for merely 'safe to use' when you can wait for 'awesome to use?'! :)


IrishLass :)
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I was only responding to the statement
"Unfortunately, HP takes just a long as CP maybe longer due to more liquid required to make it. They should both cure 4-6 weeks before using, other than testing yourself."

I do indeed agree that soap is better after that cure time but I was trying to make the point that is can be used and is fine after one week so that people are not frightened out of their lives to touch their soap before 4 to 6 weeks!!!! LOL

I have indeed made CP on many occasions but this was before I fell in love with HP so I do know the pluses and the pitfalls of CP.

But I do agree with DeeAnna that soap is fine once it is zap free but far better after a longer cure. And yes again I agree why settle for safe when you can wait for awesome, but I was not saying we should use soap after a week only that we can, and that the 4 to 6 weeks is not a have to just a better to. HTH.
 
For me the biggest issue with uncured HP soap is the longevity (or lack thereof!) - it might well be physically hard, but without the cure it just won't hold up to a rigorous use.

In the early stages, especially when looking to tweak a recipe and gauge the other properties (such as longevity) it is vital to wait until the soap is well cured before passing judgment on it. More experienced soapers will know more about how long certain recipes are going to last and how, from testing uncured (but safe) bars, the cured soap is likely to behave. New soapers don't have that experience, and neither do lay-testers.
 
gloopygloop said:
I was only responding to the statement
"Unfortunately, HP takes just a long as CP maybe longer due to more liquid required to make it. They should both cure 4-6 weeks before using, other than testing yourself."

I do indeed agree that soap is better after that cure time but I was trying to make the point that is can be used and is fine after one week so that people are not frightened out of their lives to touch their soap before 4 to 6 weeks!!!! LOL

I have indeed made CP on many occasions but this was before I fell in love with HP so I do know the pluses and the pitfalls of CP.

But I do agree with DeeAnna that soap is fine once it is zap free but far better after a longer cure. And yes again I agree why settle for safe when you can wait for awesome, but I was not saying we should use soap after a week only that we can, and that the 4 to 6 weeks is not a have to just a better to. HTH.
Click to expand...

My apologies, gloppygloop. For whatever reason, my mind was jumbling up different posts by different posters, thereby causing me to grossly misunderstand/misinterpret things. I most definitely shouldn't post on an empty stomach! :lol:


IrishLass :)
 
I rebatched the whole crumbly mess and now I have a wet mess!! I have it in the dehydrator (105%) Note to self, when rebatching, don't use the freezer! Too much water and frozen weirdness!! The control that I left on the counter was fine!
 
Dehydrator can warp your soap. Is it too wet to place on a shelf and just leave it be?
 
To be clear, gloopygloop, my only objection to your post & what I (and I believe others) were trying to point out, is what I have bolded:

I will say that the soap will definitily improve with more time as all soap tends to do, but it certainly does not require the 4 to 6 weeks "cure time" to be safely used as CP does.
Click to expand...

Carry on! :mrgreen:
 
Fresh soap really does a number on my skin. Awful dry feeling like all the moisture has been sucked from my hands! It's interesting how everyone's skin is different.

OP, it's an excellent idea to test your soap as it cures and write down thorough notes. How it feels on your skin, how the lather is, how long the bar lasts. You could cut one bar into thin pieces to try at 1 week old, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, etc. And compare the difference. And definitely save a few pieces to try at 2 months, 6 months and 1 year. It just gets better and better!
 
Fabulous advice! I've taken pics and tagged them with the recipes and processes. I will need to add to that, because I really haven't used other than next to the kitchen sink to be sure they don't ZAP!! A HUGE learning curve which I embrace!
 

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