I am also a member of the Dish. The majority there are into lotion making more than soap.
Cure time...
- Thread starter DeeAnna
- Start date
Help Support Soapmaking Forum:
Saponista
Well-Known Member
I tried to join the dish and they never authorised my account so I gave up.
penelopejane
Well-Known Member
I think the difference between cured and aged soap is significant. When I first tried homemade soap I found it too soft and most of is washed down the drain so I gave up on it. 2 years later I tried the exact same soaps (samples still in my cupboard) and they were amazing. So much so that I started making soap for myself.
I can see why people who sell soap don't want to store it but they are really doing themselves and the industry a disservice.
Their loss, our gain.
I can see why people who sell soap don't want to store it but they are really doing themselves and the industry a disservice.
Their loss, our gain.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think of the cure tome as something along the lines of wine.
Once wine is done fermenting you CAN drink it ( tastes like rotten fruit). It is a lot better when you let it "cure" and even better when you let it "age" ( develops notes and a nice body).
Once soap is done saponifying you CAN use it ( cleans). But why do that when after it cures it improves in so many ways ( lather, body and conditioning )? If you have the patience to age a soap ( try this with a stable recipe) try it ( think Castile or salt bar).
Just my thoughts.
Steve
Once wine is done fermenting you CAN drink it ( tastes like rotten fruit). It is a lot better when you let it "cure" and even better when you let it "age" ( develops notes and a nice body).
Once soap is done saponifying you CAN use it ( cleans). But why do that when after it cures it improves in so many ways ( lather, body and conditioning )? If you have the patience to age a soap ( try this with a stable recipe) try it ( think Castile or salt bar).
Just my thoughts.
Steve
ngian
Well-Known Member
I agree with you Susie, but I just wanted to say that maybe an ungelled soap will have the same crystallized structure with a gelled soap in maybe twice the cured time, and all this if we can somehow meter this formation (hardness, foaming behavior, the amount of water the bar can soak in, in a specific time just like Kevin Dunn did.)
I did the question in the first place because I've read that gel phase speeds up this formation (crystallized structure), while this structure (when the molecules of sodiums of the fatty acids are sitting next to each other as tidy and close as the can) is also being developed slower while the soap is in the cure phase.
I know it's difficult to say for sure but as a general rule what would you suggest is a good rule of thumb for water loss percentage to consider a CP batch to be fully cured considering there has been no water discount applied to the batch? DeAnna's chart on page one suggests on the order of 8-9% water loss before it tapers off.
That's correct for the two batches I tested. I made these soaps with a 30% to 33% lye concentration. "Full water" using the usual default of 38% water as % of oils is roughly 28% lye concentration for a typical blend of fats. But "38% water as % of oils" can range in lye concentration from 25% to 31% if you make castile (olive) or "marine" (coconut oil) soaps. So what's your idea of full water? If it falls within the lye concentrations I've mentioned, then I'd say 8% to 10% water loss is a reasonable estimate. Bear in mind that the water loss can taper off and the soap might still not be considered fully cured.
Even with the great work done by others, if I was looking to rely on something for weight labeling, I would test each recipe of mine myself. So many different things can impact the amount of water lost and the weight that it corresponds to that nothing short of actually weighing a soap regularly for a while will be accurate enough
And so, that's what I started to do. I used to use the standard "six week" cure time before I'd even use it, let alone think about giving it to someone. But I started to weigh my batches. I weigh 4 bars from each batch. I write numbers on a label and rip it then stick it to the bars. Primitive but effective. I started doing that with all of my soaps in June because I wanted to track the weight loss to determine when it was "safe" to take them off the shelf and put them in a box. I decided when I got three weekly readings in a row the same, then it was OK to pack them up. The only problem with my "brilliant" idea is one out of four bars (different bars) in every batch lost 5 grams each time. I decided it was my scale and/or not really significant enough weight loss to make a difference. They're boxed and will sit in the boxes for six months to a year before I do anything with them.
I like a long cure. I've tried my soaps that were old (six months to a year) and found them to be 100% better than they were when I made them. That got me hooked on the idea that something else is going on with the soap on a molecular level and I made the wine comparison, too. Like wine, I am convinced that soap gets better with age. I have no proof of that, other than what DeeAnna has explained here, and there are so many soapers that say completely different information regarding curing and what exactly it is.
I know what it is not. Curing is not saponification and water loss. There is something far more going on. One of the things I noticed, and was pleasantly surprised about, is it is far easier to "clean" up an old bar of soap than a new bar of soap. When I'm planning my weeks old soap to box them, they smear all over the planner. When I grabbed old soap that had never been planned, it flaked and crumbled. It was much easier to work with. Actually, I'll have to remember that.
Exactly my experiential observations as well!
IrishLass
And mine. I can not begin to tell a newbie how much better a 4 + month old soap is than a 4 week old soap is. The difference is astounding. There is, indeed, far more going on than moisture loss. When I made so many soaps for everyone, I stuck a note in there suggesting what order to use the soaps in based on the date they were made.
Add my name to the list.
At 4 to 6 weeks most soap is usable. At 4 to 6 months most soaps are getting a lot better. Saponification takes a few hours so you gotta know there's something beyond that that is happening.
Maybe it's just soapy magic!
Is it possible to have too long a cure time where the quality of the soap is degraded? I'm thinking specifically of the oil that has not saponified due to whatever superfat percentage was selected might turn rancid over time and we don't have a lot of choice especially in CP which fats remain in the soap.
I have a small piece of the first soap I made in 2013. So far no rancidity. And it is AWESOME!
I agree with the others. There is some soapy magic happening with a really well cured bar of soap. I just found one of my very first bars in a drawer form 2010 and it still smelled good and lathers great. It wasn't the best recipe but it's better now than when it was made.
That's one of the biggest reasons I try to make the bulk of my soaps in the winter for my spring and summer shows. However, it's proved to be that I under estimated things badly this year. My business has picked up a whole lot and. I've been hustling to keep enough stock in place. With at least a 6 week cure. I really prefer longer. Will be better prepared next year I hope
That's one of the biggest reasons I try to make the bulk of my soaps in the winter for my spring and summer shows. However, it's proved to be that I under estimated things badly this year. My business has picked up a whole lot and. I've been hustling to keep enough stock in place. With at least a 6 week cure. I really prefer longer. Will be better prepared next year I hope
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 6,117
- Reaction score
- 5,402
Someone was posting in a soap forum about cure and it being only as long as water evaporation so I made a comment about it also being about the structuring of the soap. I posted one of your explanations, DeeAnna, which they felt was very helpful (I said this was not my own answer) and someone had the following questions.
"What is the relationship between water evaporation and the formation of the crystalline structure? I assume that to some extent, they go hand in hand. In other words, if you kept a newly formed bar of soap in a small sealed container, so that there was no place for the water to evaporate to, would the crystalline structure still form? Does it form faster when there is less water to begin with? Or does the water play no roll at all, and the crystalline formation is completely independent of the water in the soap. THIS is a question I've had for a long time."
Given that we can soap with a fair water discount, clearly not all the water is necessary, but is the organization of the molecules dependent on the process of evaporation? And her other questions.
"What is the relationship between water evaporation and the formation of the crystalline structure? I assume that to some extent, they go hand in hand. In other words, if you kept a newly formed bar of soap in a small sealed container, so that there was no place for the water to evaporate to, would the crystalline structure still form? Does it form faster when there is less water to begin with? Or does the water play no roll at all, and the crystalline formation is completely independent of the water in the soap. THIS is a question I've had for a long time."
Given that we can soap with a fair water discount, clearly not all the water is necessary, but is the organization of the molecules dependent on the process of evaporation? And her other questions.
I do not soap with a water discount. I have the same question, but my gut tells me that loss of moisture has very little to do with formation of crystalline structure as my soaps continue to improve long after they stop losing moisture weight.
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 6,117
- Reaction score
- 5,402
Bump! I think DeeAnna is back from vacation.
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2010
- Messages
- 6,117
- Reaction score
- 5,402
Oh my! Well, I thank you prematurely for your answers. They are always well-thought out and very well-explained. I really appreciate that you take the time and effort to do it.
