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cherrycoke216 said:
Ok sorry I assumed that you are the green purist bunch found in California and NYC and suburban area.
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Haha! I am no purist. I buy plastic water bottles by the crate and don't compost and I drive a car... alone everyday! Maybe I should get rid of that "Los Angeles" next to my name. ha! Actually I lived in San Francisco for 10 years before LA! oh nooo talk about "purists"!! The thing is I'll take a purist that keeps it all to themselves any day over someone who thinks they're better than everyone else because of whatever it is they choose to eat or buy or believe in. I can't STAND self-righteousness. which again is why I really try to keep all that to myself and avoid conversations about it like the plague. I just want to enjoy our commonality here which is our interest/obsession/addiction/passion for making soap! I kinda love the fact that a lot of us here might not have anything at all in common otherwise! All it takes is soap!

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emi said:
Haha! yes, you're absolutely right! I know the types you are talking about, and like I said before that kinda thing can just be so annoying and exhausting to deal with, which is why I was really wanting to avoid the subject, but i just couldn't not ask to be sure about cocoa butter. And I would've never thought of soy wax! Thanks for clearning that up for me about the vinegar. I'm suuuuper careful fully covered, gloves, goggles, vent directly above, no pets, all done on a big dedicated tray.

When you say "oat flour" do you literally mean the completely pulverized "flour" like the texture of regular wheat flour? Or is it oatmeal that you blitzed in a food processor so it still had some texture to it? Do you use it for its exfoliant properties or for the quality and properties of the soap itself? When I made oat milk to sub for water, sieved through a nut milk bag even, froze them into cubes, and added to lye, it turned an intense orange color and the whole mixture seized up a lot and turned into the consistency of toothpaste. I added it to my oils anyway and the stick blender broke it all up, but I felt like something went wrong there. The soap still is curing so I haven't got the results yet. I have always loved oat meal soap I've bought and would like to eventually find a way to incorporate it into my soap. Another time I put oatmeal in my soap I blitzed it (not enough) in my food processor, to serve as an exfoliant additive I added after trace, but it turned out with really hard pieces and hurt to rub across my skin. I'd love to know how you've used it successfully. I actually had a hard time finding videos showing use of oat flour as well as oat milk. I found recipes, but I wanted to see how it's supposed to behave during the process.

Thanks again for your advise and information!

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Oops! Oh my! You are a people pleaser more than I am. You eat meat just to avoid conversation about vegan/vegetarian. So I guess vegan/vegetarian for you it's a personal choice or health reason, not because of religion. Oftentimes in a conversation I'm not comfortable with, I just nod and smile or reply no and end of topic with a new topic bring up.
Sorry I kinda poo poo in your thread. I just randomly typed what I randomly thought of at the time. I apologize if it cause you any stress.

And Irish lass is right, I'm not saying olive oil is bad, I was trying to give examples that there's no one size fits all solution. But I didn't explain myself further. Because everyone has different skin type, weather ( hot or humid, arid or cold ), water type ( hard or soft ) so my holy grail soap probably is someone else's poison. Metaphorically. And high olive oil in my subtropical plus my oily skin type is a bad combo. I can use olive in smaller amount. Should have pinpointed it in that post.

As for the oat flour, it's actually instant oatmeal. But it is kinda shredded or being sieved, doesn't look like whole grain, like it's for senior citizens or kids, easier to chew and digest. And I have grind it finer, not exactly so fine like industrial pulverizing machine. And I use it because colloidal oatmeal is proven its mildness and great for eczema. See aveeno , eucerin or some European brand A-Derma. I don't feel the scrub, but probably because my instant oatmeal is like leftover of whole grain and I blended it and wet it first. Oh and I have a thicker hide. Hahahaha!

It became orange color because oatmeal contains sugar. Food puree ( & coffee, beer,etc ) and lye will create some funky smell and discoloration.
I think yours should work out fine. If not, post your full recipe and methods and ask on forum.
 
cherrycoke216 said:
Oops! Oh my! You are a people pleaser more than I am. You eat meat just to avoid conversation about vegan/vegetarian. So I guess vegan/vegetarian for you it's a personal choice or health reason, not because of religion. Oftentimes in a conversation I'm not comfortable with, I just nod and smile or reply no and end of topic with a new topic bring up.
Sorry I kinda poo poo in your thread. I just randomly typed what I randomly thought of at the time. I apologize if it cause you any stress.
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It might be better if we just talk about soap. You seem to be making assumptions about emi that he/she did not express, nor was it implied in any way. And this can be a super hot topic. So...about that soap...
 
Susie said:
It might be better if we just talk about soap. You seem to be making assumptions about emi that he/she did not express, nor was it implied in any way. And this can be a super hot topic. So...about that soap...
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Exactly! It was my bad! Please bombard me with questions, I'll answer if I'm capable of doing it. Emi! ;)
 
I found out I miss some questions. I have never tried wet the oatmeal in oil. Let me google that. And cocoa butter @ high percentage makes the bar hard. I guess I was thinking about your recipe that replace hard oil with soft oil. So I suggest some ways to harden a bar soap.

Oh on wholesale supply plus website, it says:

I want to add oatmeal to my cp soap. Can you tell me the best method?
This depends on the look and feel you are trying to achieve! If you want your soap to really show the oatmeal and be somewhat scrubby, you will want to leave the cut oats unground, and pour them across the very top of your traced soap in the mold. Push them down a bit to create depth in the bar.

If you want the soap to be minimally scrubby and have oatmeal throughout, you will want to grind it in a coffee grinder (or buy colloidal oatmeal, which is VERY finely ground). At trace, incorporate the ground oatmeal into the soap mixture and then pour that in the mold.


But since you say it's scrubby, maybe saturate oatmeal with water is a better idea. I'm not sure how oil will effect it. You can experiment a small batch.

And I googled Japan wax since it's quite near me. But on wiki it says it has a rancid smell... Duh! But is used in soap and cosmetics. :(
 
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cherrycoke216 said:
Oops! Oh my! You are a people pleaser more than I am. You eat meat just to avoid conversation about vegan/vegetarian. So I guess vegan/vegetarian for you it's a personal choice or health reason, not because of religion. Oftentimes in a conversation I'm not comfortable with, I just nod and smile or reply no and end of topic with a new topic bring up.
Sorry I kinda poo poo in your thread. I just randomly typed what I randomly thought of at the time. I apologize if it cause you any stress.

And Irish lass is right, I'm not saying olive oil is bad, I was trying to give examples that there's no one size fits all solution. But I didn't explain myself further. Because everyone has different skin type, weather ( hot or humid, arid or cold ), water type ( hard or soft ) so my holy grail soap probably is someone else's poison. Metaphorically. And high olive oil in my subtropical plus my oily skin type is a bad combo. I can use olive in smaller amount. Should have pinpointed it in that post.

As for the oat flour, it's actually instant oatmeal. But it is kinda shredded or being sieved, doesn't look like whole grain, like it's for senior citizens or kids, easier to chew and digest. And I have grind it finer, not exactly so fine like industrial pulverizing machine. And I use it because colloidal oatmeal is proven its mildness and great for eczema. See aveeno , eucerin or some European brand A-Derma. I don't feel the scrub, but probably because my instant oatmeal is like leftover of whole grain and I blended it and wet it first. Oh and I have a thicker hide. Hahahaha!

It became orange color because oatmeal contains sugar. Food puree ( & coffee, beer,etc ) and lye will create some funky smell and discoloration.
I think yours should work out fine. If not, post your full recipe and methods and ask on forum.
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Haha! you didn't poo poo on anything! And yes, i agree that I just have to find what I like myself since everyone has different needs and preferences. The last batch I made had 50% olive oil so I'm looking forward to trying that out once it's cured. Everyone says to cure longer for olive oil heavy soaps. At 50% should I give it 2 months? The cure waiting time is the most frustrating part of the soap making process! I remember literally counting down the days when I made my very first batch of soap. And as for the oatmeal, I never thought to use instant oatmeal! That's a great idea! I was using the regular old fashioned Quaker oats I already had, you know, for eating. And the funky smell you mentioned! Yes! I noticed that too with my oatmilk soap when I combined the lye and oatmilk creating that strange orange glob. It still had that smell the next day when i pulled it out to cut and was worried it went wrong. But the smell went away within a few days. I'm still waiting on that cure as well. 3 more days.

I have a question about curing. I always try to find answers myself online before I ask on this forum and so far keep getting conclusions like it just "does better" or "trust me, you'll want to cure longer...." , but can someone tell me a little more as to why and what happens during a cure? And how do I know when a recipe requires a longer cure? I understand that curing dehydrates the soap and is part of the hardening process, so if using higher water content that would require a longer cure. But it's not just about hardening right? I did read that the saponification process continues, but no more than about 2 weeks after. Again it just mentioned the dehydrating things again and hardness therefore a longer lasting bar. I'm trying to understand why a particular oil will require a longer cure despite the water concentration used in the recipe. I've also read that the soap will become "milder". Why? And what exactly does "milder" mean? Like less "squeaky" of a clean after rinsing and more of that moisturized feel where you don't feel like you've stripped your skin completely of its natural oils and moisture? If that is the case, would superfatting a recipe more lower that stripping effect? Does superfatting a recipe effect the cure time? I've read repeatedly that olive oil in particular needs a longer cure, and cocoa butter as well. I don't see much similarity between olive oil and cocoa butter so I'm trying to understand what it is about these oils that make them need a longer cure as opposed to other oils like coconut. But I'm not understanding how and why a particular oil would require a longer cure. Is it a particular fatty acid in the oil?

Thank you again for your reply and useful information!
 
cherrycoke216 said:
I found out I miss some questions. I have never tried wet the oatmeal in oil. Let me google that. And cocoa butter @ high percentage makes the bar hard. I guess I was thinking about your recipe that replace hard oil with soft oil. So I suggest some ways to harden a bar soap.

Oh on wholesale supply plus website, it says:

I want to add oatmeal to my cp soap. Can you tell me the best method?
This depends on the look and feel you are trying to achieve! If you want your soap to really show the oatmeal and be somewhat scrubby, you will want to leave the cut oats unground, and pour them across the very top of your traced soap in the mold. Push them down a bit to create depth in the bar.

If you want the soap to be minimally scrubby and have oatmeal throughout, you will want to grind it in a coffee grinder (or buy colloidal oatmeal, which is VERY finely ground). At trace, incorporate the ground oatmeal into the soap mixture and then pour that in the mold.


But since you say it's scrubby, maybe saturate oatmeal with water is a better idea. I'm not sure how oil will effect it. You can experiment a small batch.

And I googled Japan wax since it's quite near me. But on wiki it says it has a rancid smell... Duh! But is used in soap and cosmetics. :(
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Hm, "collodial oatmeal" is something I've only heard of but not ever really seen or dealt with. I'll check that out. I was thinking to soak the oats in water first before adding at trace, but was afraid that would cause some kind of rotting since the water in the oat will not be able to dehydrate , which is why I thought maybe soaking in oil if that would even work. I'm going to give instant oats a try and that collodial oatmeal as well. That is of course AFTER I spend quite a lot of batches keeping things super simple as I have promised to all my wiser soap mentors who have unanimously advised me to do so! ;)

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emi said:
Haha! you didn't poo poo on anything! And yes, i agree that I just have to find what I like myself since everyone has different needs and preferences. The last batch I made had 50% olive oil so I'm looking forward to trying that out once it's cured. Everyone says to cure longer for olive oil heavy soaps. At 50% should I give it 2 months?

I have a question about curing. I always try to find answers myself online before I ask on this forum and so far keep getting conclusions like it just "does better" or "trust me, you'll want to cure longer...." , but can someone tell me a little more as to why and what happens during a cure? And how do I know when a recipe requires a longer cure? I understand that curing dehydrates the soap and is part of the hardening process, so if using higher water content that would require a longer cure. But it's not just about hardening right? I did read that the saponification process continues, but no more than about 2 weeks after. Again it just mentioned the dehydrating things again and hardness therefore a longer lasting bar. I'm trying to understand why a particular oil will require a longer cure despite the water concentration used in the recipe. I've also read that the soap will become "milder". Why? And what exactly does "milder" mean? Like less "squeaky" of a clean after rinsing and more of that moisturized feel where you don't feel like you've stripped your skin completely of its natural oils and moisture? If that is the case, would superfatting a recipe more lower that stripping effect? Does superfatting a recipe effect the cure time? I've read repeatedly that olive oil in particular needs a longer cure, and cocoa butter as well. I don't see much similarity between olive oil and cocoa butter so I'm trying to understand what it is about these oils that make them need a longer cure as opposed to other oils like coconut. But I'm not understanding how and why a particular oil would require a longer cure. Is it a particular fatty acid in the oil?

Thank you again for your reply and useful information!
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High olive oil vs cure time
www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52194
Pay special attention to #4, morpheus PA uses soy wax to counteract olive oil soap soft problem.

What happens during cure? Water evaporation, ph level get lower ( thus milder, but a great balanced recipe can be a little higher in ph and still be gentle, there's a chart some commercial baby soap ph is as high as 11 or 12 ) , and crystal structure is formed. I'm lack of sleep today so can't explain better now. Crystal structure makes a well cured bar harder. If you put two well cured soap together, you'll find some strange " vibes" <maybe like two magnets put together?> (lack of a better word, this is my second language, I remember DeeAnna described it. But for the life of me can't find it now. Let's see tomorrow if I can do that )
Crystal structure also makes it less soluble, last longer.
High OLEIC acid soap needs longer cure. High soft/liquid oil needs it, too.

SF high--> less striping, yes and no. For a salt bar ( high coconut), yes. For a balanced bar, don't need super high SF.
As far as I know, sf doesn't effect cure time. According to Kevin Dunn, saponification happens in like 24-48 hrs. 48 hrs being the ungelled or put in fridge or high in soft/ liquid oils. These oils tends to be saponified at a slower pace.
Regarding fatty acids ranges some soapers love to shoot for:

www.modernsoapmaking.com/the-most-popular-fatty-acid-profiles-in-soapmaking/

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm having a brain fart now. :p
 
emi said:
Hm, "collodial oatmeal" is something I've only heard of but not ever really seen or dealt with. I'll check that out. I was thinking to soak the oats in water first before adding at trace, but was afraid that would cause some kind of rotting since the water in the oat will not be able to dehydrate , which is why I thought maybe soaking in oil if that would even work. I'm going to give instant oats a try and that collodial oatmeal as well. That is of course AFTER I spend quite a lot of batches keeping things super simple as I have promised to all my wiser soap mentors who have unanimously advised me to do so! ;)

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www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38338

www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=37712
If you don't put too much, it will not rot or grow mold. Search percentage on forum or see above thread,

Water in oat will evaporate some during cure. You can subtract water from lye water and add it at trace. Or do oat milk way like above thread. :p
 
emi said:
I have a question about curing. I always try to find answers myself online before I ask on this forum and so far keep getting conclusions like it just "does better" or "trust me, you'll want to cure longer...." , but can someone tell me a little more as to why and what happens during a cure? And how do I know when a recipe requires a longer cure? I understand that curing dehydrates the soap and is part of the hardening process, so if using higher water content that would require a longer cure. But it's not just about hardening right? I did read that the saponification process continues, but no more than about 2 weeks after. Again it just mentioned the dehydrating things again and hardness therefore a longer lasting bar. I'm trying to understand why a particular oil will require a longer cure despite the water concentration used in the recipe. I've also read that the soap will become "milder". Why? And what exactly does "milder" mean? Like less "squeaky" of a clean after rinsing and more of that moisturized feel where you don't feel like you've stripped your skin completely of its natural oils and moisture? If that is the case, would superfatting a recipe more lower that stripping effect? Does superfatting a recipe effect the cure time? I've read repeatedly that olive oil in particular needs a longer cure, and cocoa butter as well. I don't see much similarity between olive oil and cocoa butter so I'm trying to understand what it is about these oils that make them need a longer cure as opposed to other oils like coconut. But I'm not understanding how and why a particular oil would require a longer cure. Is it a particular fatty acid in the oil?

Thank you again for your reply and useful information!
Click to expand...

A great explanation by DeeAnna of what happens during cure is found in this thread starting with post #51 on page 6. Read posts 51 through 55 for the full description.
 
emi said:
Yes, this is a great recipe I'd love to try! It's actually a little similar to my last batch, but I'd like to try this one exactly. Thank you for this. And I had no idea people don't like to go over 15% with CO. Why? I've been using CO as my main oil for most of the batches I've done so far, including the ones I really liked. It seemed to be one of the few veg/palm free oils I could find that I was allowed to use up to 50%. Then I realized I could do the same with OO.
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It goes back to the whole conversation about what people like or don't like. Some people find coconut oil over 15% a little drying for their skin, whereas others can be quite happy with the higher percentage. There are some fabulous salt bar and salt brine recipes at 100% coconut oil with a 20% superfat. They're worth trying, especially if you want another nice, hard, and lathering bar.

emi said:
Illepe butter. I'd never heard of that. I looked it up and according to soapcalc it says it has 17% palmitic, 45% stearic, 35% oleic. Palm oil has 44%, 5%, 39% respectively. Tallow has 28%, 22%, 36% with similar numbers for lard. So according to just the numbers, it seems like illepe has a closer profile to tallow/lard which I'm also in search of since tallow/lard is always listed as a good sub for Palm oil! I found it at about $1.5 per ounce, compared to about $1 per ounce for cocoa. High palmitic is proving to be a tough find. In that same site, I found "coffee bean oil, roasted" to have a high 40% of palmitic with very low number to none for stearic/oleic but 38% linoleic. I looked it up and it was about $3 per OUNCE! yikes! But cherrycoke216 informed me of soy wax that seems like a good sub too, especially at a nice $3 per pound ($0.19 per ounce).
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In that case, soy wax sounds like a good option to try! I'm afraid that being new to soaping, I don't have much experience with all of the oils. The more exotic oils sound like something fun to use at a later date, just to see if there is any noticeable difference.

emi said:
I'd never heard of "Bastile" soap. I'm a bit confused with some contradictory info I'm getting online. So am I correct with this? "Castile" soap actually means using just one oil, but it is usually olive oil and one can assume "castile soap" to be 100% olive oil soap. "Bastile" soap is when olive oil is the main oil containing at least 50% of the oils and rest are a combo of other oils in smaller amounts. Just by looking up "Bastile" I immediately found many veg/palm free recipes come up so quickly! So thank you for this! I've been having such a hard time finding these recipes! If I looked up "vegan" or "animal free" the recipes would have mainly palm. And if I looked up "palm-free" the recipes would mainly have animal oils! And if I looked up "animal free palm free" they'd just all show up at the same time! Ahhhh!
:headbanging:
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*grins* Don't worry, I'm still figuring things out myself. I'd never heard of Bastile either, and before I started making soap, I thought that Dr. Bronners was castile. My understanding (and hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong).. castile soap is 100% olive oil. Bastile is at least 50% olive oil, mixed with other oils.

I'm stoked that you found a bunch of other palm-free and vegan recipes to try! You may soon become our local expert on wonderful, low environmental impact soaping!

emi said:
Thank you for that. I appreciate the support and encouragement!
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It's a pleasure, you're welcome! There are a thousand ways to do soap "right", the key is to try a bunch of things and find out what your right way look like. We're here to offer ideas, tips, safety guidelines, inspiration and celebration when things go well. At the end of the cure, however, the person who gets to enjoy the soap is you and the people you share it with!
 
WeaversPort said:
I'd never heard of Bastile either, and before I started making soap, I thought that Dr. Bronners was castile. My understanding (and hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong).. castile soap is 100% olive oil. Bastile is at least 50% olive oil, mixed with other oils.
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Castile soap originates from the Castile region of Spain and is traditionally made with 100% olive oil as the saponified fat.

'Bastile' is shorthand for 'bastardized Castile'. It's not an official/legal name or anything like that, though. It's actually just a tongue-in-cheek name that a soaper made up several years ago when describing the soap she made with less than 100% olive oil. Everyone got a kick out of it and it wasn't long before it took off and soapers everywhere were using it. Being that it's just a made-up nickname, there's no official % of olive that must be used in order for a soap to be considered a 'Bastile', but there are factions out there that try to make it so, wouldn't you know it. lol I've heard everywhere from 50% OO to 60% to 70% to 80% to 90% to 95%OO, depending on who you ask. :lol: If you were to ask me, I consider my formula with 50% OO to be a 'Bastile'. :)

In the US, you can legally label a soap as 'Castile' even though it may not have any olive oil in it (which is why Dr. Bronner's and Kirk's get away with it). See this post here for the background info on why that is the case: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=251448&postcount=16


IrishLass :)
 
IrishLass said:
Castile soap originates from the Castile region of Spain and is traditionally made with 100% olive oil as the saponified fat.

'Bastile' is shorthand for 'bastardized Castile'. It's not an official/legal name or anything like that, though. It's actually just a tongue-in-cheek name that a soaper made up several years ago when describing the soap she made with less than 100% olive oil. Everyone got a kick out of it and it wasn't long before it took off and soapers everywhere were using it. Being that it's just a made-up nickname, there's no official % of olive that must be used in order for a soap to be considered a 'Bastile', but there are factions out there that try to make it so, wouldn't you know it. lol I've heard everywhere from 50% OO to 60% to 70% to 80% to 90% to 95%OO, depending on who you ask. :lol: If you were to ask me, I consider my formula with 50% OO to be a 'Bastile'. :)

In the US, you can legally label a soap as 'Castile' even though it may not have any olive oil in it (which is why Dr. Bronner's and Kirk's get away with it). See this post here for the background info on why that is the case: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=251448&postcount=16


IrishLass :)
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Wow what a wealth of information. "Bastardized castile" haha I would've never thought of that. I thought it had something to do with france. Thank you for sharing this information. And the term castile even went to court! It should though. Its very misleading. I too thought Dr. Broners was "castile" soap. It's amazing the kind of research and in depth knowledge I've been exposed to on this forum. Next I'm going to look up what "milled" means. The word came up a few times in the text regarding castile. And ive often seen on bars of soap, "french-milled". Thank you again for the info!
 
earlene said:
A great explanation by DeeAnna of what happens during cure is found in this thread starting with post #51 on page 6. Read posts 51 through 55 for the full description.
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That was quite a read! I think I read every sentence 3 or 4 times before I proceeded. But I still feel like I need to read it again a bunch. I think I'm supposed to understand "phase" not to be referring to a increment of time like in the normal definition of the word, but a kind of layer in the soap structure, "liquid phase". I'm definitely going to read it again a few times. I"m also going to try to understand better what "salting-out" means. I understand the principle of osmosis if that is what it means? To equal out concentrations between 2 sides of a membrane. What I got from it is that the insoluble and soluble soaps (fatty acids) essentially trade places between the inner crystal structure and the outer "liquid phase" which can only take place after sufficient evaporation has taken place. Which has nothing to do with saponification that is finished within 48 hours at the most. Saponification being simply the reaction of lye and oil becoming "soap" or the "sodium ....ates" (sodium palmate, sodium cocoate, etc). That exchange of moving the more soluble acids to the outer liquid phase is what causes a better lather and bubbles. This was an incredibly impressive and insightful read. Thank you for showing me!
 
I’m arriving to the party late so I’m going to try not to repeat what others have said.

I.Love.SoyWax!

There, I’ve said it. I use it (or have tried it) in just about everything. Bar soap, pomade, lip balm, lotion. I’ve used it in bar soap at levels as low as 5%, all the way to a whopping 35%; in shaving soap I use it at 60%. I love it in hair pomade as it has a high melting point and doesn’t make hair look greasy, and it’s a heck of a lot easier to wash out than beeswax. I buy it 50 lbs at a time from Nature’s Garden. It you’re interested in trying it, make sure you buy the right stuff. It should have an INCI name of Hydrogenated Soybean Oil. Many of the soy-based waxes are meant for candles and contain other proprietary ingredients that you don’t want in BB products. Look for Golden Foods 415 soy wax.

A few observations I’ve made about soy wax:

1. It is possible to make a good all-veggie bar. It took me a long time to get there, but I love my bars. I’d put them up against animal-fat bars any day. I used to use refined shea butter at 65% and I never experienced the lack of lather that others report. It makes a beautiful soap, but when I started selling, I needed to find a cheaper option.

2. I used to worry about people being turned-off by soy wax. It seems to get a lot of bad press due to the GMO argument. GMOs don’t bother me. We all have our personal soap boxes, and that isn’t one of mine. I’ve only had one customer ask me about soy and that was due to allergies.

3. I’ve seen opinions that state that soy wax makes for a waxy soap. That never made sense to me as it’s not a wax. However. . .

4. I found that a low SF is the way to go. In my experience, soy wax seems to take FOREVER to saponify. Too high of a SF and too much of the soy remains in the bar as fat and that does leave an almost-unpleasant-coating on the skin.

5. For a lack of a better word, Soy wax needs to be tempered when used in soap. I don’t do the whole heat, hold, and cool, but I do heat most of my oils to about 155F before adding some room temperature oil to cool it all back down. I soap at 125F-130, with only a whisk, in a SS pot. I watch the heat throughout the whole process and if it dips below 125, I put it back on the fire until the temp comes back up. I’ve tried soaping cooler and only heating my oils until the soy is just melted, but it almost always gives me stearic spots. By “tempering” the whole lot, I’ve avoided them.

6. Soy wax makes an unbelievably white bar—without TD. I usually keep about 75% of my batter uncolored to highlight the white.

And coconut--When I first started soaping, everyone used coconut at 25%. But on this forum, I too have noticed that a lot of people stick to about 15%. One thing I will point out is that lard and tallow contain small amounts of lauric acid (and myristic acid in tallow). I expect a soap with high amounts of those fats would “need” less coconut than a palm-free veggie bar (palm has a small amount of myristic). These days I stick with 20% in my basic soy wax bar unless I’m adding salt—then I bump the coconut up accordingly.

That’s all I’ve got for now. So sorry for the long, rambling post, but I hope it helps.
 
Saranac said:
I’m arriving to the party late so I’m going to try not to repeat what others have said.

I.Love.SoyWax!

There, I’ve said it. I use it (or have tried it) in just about everything. Bar soap, pomade, lip balm, lotion. I’ve used it in bar soap at levels as low as 5%, all the way to a whopping 35%; in shaving soap I use it at 60%. I love it in hair pomade as it has a high melting point and doesn’t make hair look greasy, and it’s a heck of a lot easier to wash out than beeswax. I buy it 50 lbs at a time from Nature’s Garden. It you’re interested in trying it, make sure you buy the right stuff. It should have an INCI name of Hydrogenated Soybean Oil. Many of the soy-based waxes are meant for candles and contain other proprietary ingredients that you don’t want in BB products. Look for Golden Foods 415 soy wax.

A few observations I’ve made about soy wax:

1. It is possible to make a good all-veggie bar. It took me a long time to get there, but I love my bars. I’d put them up against animal-fat bars any day. I used to use refined shea butter at 65% and I never experienced the lack of lather that others report. It makes a beautiful soap, but when I started selling, I needed to find a cheaper option.

2. I used to worry about people being turned-off by soy wax. It seems to get a lot of bad press due to the GMO argument. GMOs don’t bother me. We all have our personal soap boxes, and that isn’t one of mine. I’ve only had one customer ask me about soy and that was due to allergies.

3. I’ve seen opinions that state that soy wax makes for a waxy soap. That never made sense to me as it’s not a wax. However. . .

4. I found that a low SF is the way to go. In my experience, soy wax seems to take FOREVER to saponify. Too high of a SF and too much of the soy remains in the bar as fat and that does leave an almost-unpleasant-coating on the skin.

5. For a lack of a better word, Soy wax needs to be tempered when used in soap. I don’t do the whole heat, hold, and cool, but I do heat most of my oils to about 155F before adding some room temperature oil to cool it all back down. I soap at 125F-130, with only a whisk, in a SS pot. I watch the heat throughout the whole process and if it dips below 125, I put it back on the fire until the temp comes back up. I’ve tried soaping cooler and only heating my oils until the soy is just melted, but it almost always gives me stearic spots. By “tempering” the whole lot, I’ve avoided them.

6. Soy wax makes an unbelievably white bar—without TD. I usually keep about 75% of my batter uncolored to highlight the white.

And coconut--When I first started soaping, everyone used coconut at 25%. But on this forum, I too have noticed that a lot of people stick to about 15%. One thing I will point out is that lard and tallow contain small amounts of lauric acid (and myristic acid in tallow). I expect a soap with high amounts of those fats would “need” less coconut than a palm-free veggie bar (palm has a small amount of myristic). These days I stick with 20% in my basic soy wax bar unless I’m adding salt—then I bump the coconut up accordingly.

That’s all I’ve got for now. So sorry for the long, rambling post, but I hope it helps.
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You're not rambling at all! All of this is so very helpful. I seem to be one of the few making veggie palm free bars so this experience your sharing with me is very valuable. I stay away from animal fats and palm, but I don't have an issue with soy with the GMO argument. (Obviously not going to get into it here.) So I am trying to find a good sub for tallow/lard and palm, which is why I'm trying cocoa butter and soy wax to see how they behave. I'm a newbie with 7 whole batches under my belt so far, including mistake batches, so I'm going back to keeping things simple and learn the basics as advised by the wise soapers on this forum. I just finished making 2 batches, both using same proportions of 3 oils. One was

cocoa butter 46%
rice bran 34%
coconut 20%

And the 2nd was the same except I used 46% soy wax instead of cocoa butter with the same proportions. SF at 7% for both. I made them both about a week ago so I need to wait on the cure. But just from cutting them I noticed the cocoa butter one was very brittle and "waxy". The soy wax one was still hard, but softer than the cocoa butter one. From what you said, maybe I'm going to have to lower my SF on the soy wax bar. I'm also concerned about the type of soy wax I bought. I'm pretty sure it's the type used mainly for candles based on the questions asked about it on amazon. It came in a bag of flakes. It's a 3 lb bag and it literally only says "Akosoy Natural Soy Wax" on it. It says on the site it's "natural 415 soy wax" with "no additives" but I have a feeling it's not the kind you're advising to get. Is there anything in particular I should look out for in the cured product? Also, what do you mean by "tempering" the oils? Just to keep the temp above 125 at all times? Or the process of heating the oils to 155 then cooling it down? I probably reached at least 130 or so when I melted my oils. I cooled it to about 96 and my lye water was at about 92 when I combined them. I'm really hoping that soy wax is an oil I can use as a sub for palm and tallow/lard. It's much cheaper than the butters! Thanks again for your post. Very helpful.
 
emi said:
Also, what do you mean by "tempering" the oils? Just to keep the temp above 125 at all times? Or the process of heating the oils to 155 then cooling it down? I probably reached at least 130 or so when I melted my oils. I cooled it to about 96 and my lye water was at about 92 when I combined them. I'm really hoping that soy wax is an oil I can use as a sub for palm and tallow/lard. It's much cheaper than the butters! Thanks again for your post. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

Tempering is often done as a way to organize the fatty acids in a wax or butter, in order to keep them from separating out or getting grainy later - especially if exposed to warmth and heat. You find it done regularly in chocolate, so that you don't get the white, waxy look of various fats melting at different temperatures and creating separation.

The general practice is to heat something up to melt it, hold it at that temperature, and then rapidly cool it.

The hold provides two functions: 1) to give the butter or wax time to "organize", and 2) time to disinfect/sterilize the mixture in case of possible contamination in equipment or materials. In soap, holding isn't as important as when making other cosmetics. The assumption is that the highly caustic nature of the lye and the saponifying process addresses the concerns of contamination... Though I'd still avoid spitting in it or something ;)
 

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