Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers? A brief encounter

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I'm stunned by the artistry and beauty of some M&P soapers and don't think it's inferior by any means. Post pictures of some of yours? We'd love to see some of your creativity.

I make M&P only for one boutique shop, absolutely love making it, and feel as good about it as my CP. I try to minimize chemicals in my products (I do use micas, fragrance oils, glitter, emulsifers, preserviatives, derivatives of natural products, others ingredients that are not natural), but I feel really good about the mostly chemical-free SFIC-base ingredients.

That is so cool that you're wrapping your soapmaking around your son and his needs. That says wonderful mom to me. I would just shrug off the criticism. Some of it is not informed, and some is just people's different preferences. Believe in what you do :)
 
Thank you Annamarie for clarifying. :)

Thank you paillo. My son definitely comes first and he really breaks out of his shell when he sees me making my soaps. :) He even helps me pick out colors for my loads and gets so excited when he sees the swirls. It's magical to just see his reaction.

Loafs not loads lol... I'm using my phone to reply. I hate auto spell!
 
Amen! I'm a M&P soaper. When people ask about the process of making soap, I'm honest and tell them that it's melt-pour. I also tell them that I don't have 6-10 weeks for soap to cure. I make soap (create soap) as a marketing / fundraising tool for my nonprofit. I make a killer beach soap that people love! I'm getting better and better at being more artistic with adding various colors in a molded soap. I love adding mica, mixing FO for a unique scent, and just being creative.

Yes, I'll probably try CP eventually because I love the swirls that are exclusive to CP. in the meantime, I've got a business to run and lives to save so will continue to create with the help of MP bases (low sweat in the summer!). ImageUploadedBySoap Making1466998219.983576.jpg
 
But still, unless you make your own base you don't actually MAKE soap at all:

Unscented soap is still soap, so adding fragrance to a base is not making soap. Because the base itself is already soap.

Uncoloured soap is still soap, so adding colours to a base is not making soap. Because the base itself is already soap.

Soap with no additives is still soap, so adding additives to a base is not making soap. Because the base itself is already soap.

You buy soap, improve it (hopefully) and then sell it.

I only get hostile when people who work with m&p bases continue to use the term "I make soap" when they very clearly do not make soap.
 
Amen! I'm a M&P soaper. When people ask about the process of making soap, I'm honest and tell them that it's melt-pour. I also tell them that I don't have 6-10 weeks for soap to cure. I make soap (create soap) as a marketing / fundraising tool for my nonprofit. I make a killer beach soap that people love! I'm getting better and better at being more artistic with adding various colors in a molded soap. I love adding mica, mixing FO for a unique scent, and just being creative.

Yes, I'll probably try CP eventually because I love the swirls that are exclusive to CP. in the meantime, I've got a business to run and lives to save so will continue to create with the help of MP bases (low sweat in the summer!). View attachment 21631

Can you tell me more about selling soap for a non-profit? That's something I'd really like to do!
 
My two cents as a consumer...

To be clear, I do not sell. Soaping is a hobby, not my livelihood. Therefore my perspective is that of a consumer. Some people antique. I enjoy art festivals, craft fairs, and farmer's markets. I did so long before dipping my toes into the craft and continue to do so now. I feel like most of the misunderstanding in this thread arises from perspective bias and posters addressing questions other than those asked.

1) The OP's original question was:
Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers?
I can attest as a consumer that I have often been misinformed by crafters of all disciplines about their products. That being said, I typically receive more misguided propaganda from M&P purveyors than those that employ hot or cold process. The most likely explanation is that there is a lower knowledge threshold. Please do not misinterpret my meaning. There are obviously a number of skilled and knowledgeable artisans that manipulate their medium in fascinating ways. Nonetheless, it takes significantly less research to complete your first batch of M&P or to start selling. Because of that, I have been subject to many claims regarding "lye-free", "pH-neutral", or "organic" soap. While you may not be guilty of any of these transgressions, the prevalence of this misinformation tarnishes the reputation of M&P crafters.

2) Much of the debate has centered around the terminology that M&P is sold under. It appears that no one is disregarding the technique and time involved in complex M&P designs, just that it is accurately represented. It's the same reason that contestants on Top Chef are penalized for using a boxed mix, frozen wings, or pre-packaged pasta. Regardless of the quality of the final product, it is disingenuous to utilize pre-prepared components in a cooking competition as there IS a distinction to be drawn. No one disputes the work involved; it is just a matter of adult responsibility and fair business practice to accurately represent what you did when questioned by those unfamiliar with the process. A quality product is always impressive. In this regard, I feel that The Efficacious Gentleman has been exceedingly articulate.

3) Another point of contention is relative "quality" between the processes. The reality is that there is spectrum in either. I would prefer a quality M&P base over a high coconut oil CP/HP recipe (unless it is a salt bar). That being said, many people that enter into soap making do so out of a desire to control the ingredients utilized. With the number of exposes on corporate labeling (Honest Company, anyone), it is understandable that even the most conscientious M&P crafter is dependent on the credibility of their supplier (assuming you are not making your own like lsg). A CP/HP soaper has the advantage of working with the raw materials.

4) TVivian and Miz Jenny brought up the issue of price disparity. On this, I respectfully disagree. The market is a pretty formidable mistress and I tend to think that items are worth what people will pay for them. In Miz Jenny's example, the seller was capitalizing on the adorableness of a little kid. While a bit exploitative, its not that different from showcasing clothes on a gorgeous model or soliciting a celebrity endorsement. When customers ask what the difference is, tell them. It does not denigrate the other seller to relay factual information. As a consumer, I LOVE to know what separates you from the crowd. Do you grow your herbs, infuse your oils, or have a point of view that I might appreciate (choices on palm, phthalates, EO's, eco packaging). I often readjust my verdict of "fair" when I have more information. I was once condescending and dismissive regarding some $12/lb sea salt in the bulk aisle at Whole Foods. A stockist overheard me and explained that they had some much more reasonable options. The expensive stuff was hand-harvested by indigenous people in frickin' baskets
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It's on my counter now and clearly labeled so I don't use it indiscriminately.


5) A final issue appears to be the relative "worthiness" of the processes. I find this argument to be largely pointless as it depends on your priorities. If I want a soap for my personal use in the bath, I usually reach for a CP salt soap. My preferred facial soaps are ridiculously expensive syndets that are manufactured by a cosmetics company. If I am grabbing hand soaps for the guest bathroom, some artfully rendered M&P could be multi-purpose: cleansing, decorative, and fragrant.

To summarize, I understand your frustration with the scenario provided in the original post. It was unforgivably rude for someone to publicly denigrate a product that you had lovingly conceived and purposefully created. I do not feel that much of the angst towards M&P is warranted, but it is not completely without cause. Hopefully, some thoughtful analysis will allow you to circumvent the mistakes that other soapers have made. Honestly representing your own products and skillfully plying your craft will garner the respect of fellow crafters. There will always be naysayers in any discipline. (CP/HP soapers have to consistently defend their products against those who feel soap is destructive to the skin's acid mantle.) The more informed you are, the less prevalent those detractors will be.

FYI - Please do not judge my ridiculous organizational system for dry goods. The labeling is a sickness. No sane person uses such pretentious adjectives as "Autumn Blend" on their lentils. Sadly, it is less embarrassing than my alphabetized spice rack or soaping supply system. I promise that I am really a good person that fosters stray animals and volunteers to help refugees. You should in no way see this as symptomatic of serial killer tendencies.
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- Please do not judge my ridiculous organizational system for dry goods. The labeling is a sickness. No sane person uses such pretentious adjectives as "Autumn Blend" on their lentils. Sadly, it is less embarrassing than my alphabetized spice rack or soaping supply system.

Great post makemineirish.

Is there something wrong with alphabeticalised herbs and spices or books? I ask because I do both but didn't realise I was sick. (Feels forehead in consternation.):) :) :)
 
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I like your Autumn Lentil Blend. Alphabetizing is entirely acceptable, IMO. Why do you think Libraries alphabetize? So we can find an author! To make it easier to find what we are looking for, is why we alphabetize. As long as we know how we file things, then we can find them. Not everyone files in the same way, but that doesn't mean the other person's filing system is faulty; it only means we think a bit differently. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't get upset with us when we can't find something they sent us to find without telling us a little bit about their filing methods.

Another benefit of M&P is that is something one can do with one's grandchildren without worrying so much about exposing them to lye. Granted, I have had my granddaughter help make lye soap, but not in the beginning, and she is still too young to handle the lye or even CP soap batter, IMO. Our first soap together was M&P because it was safer and the result is available for use sooner, which really is more appropriate for a young child. That is not to say they should not learn that good things come to those who wait (cured soap, for example), but we all like a little instant gratification once in a while, right? Her second soap with me was really a rebatch because it was all that was available for a joint project with her cousin when we were at a remote lake vacation, so we used some bars of Dove, grated them & added stuff to it, molded & they were ready for use immediately. Her 3rd soap with me was HP. Not sure when we will do CP together, but there is time and she does seem to have an interest.

I think M&P does benefit from a bit more cure than is customary, though. I have used M&P immediately and it just melts too darn fast. I have some bars I made last year with my granddaughter than seem so much better now than when they were new.
 
Great post makemineirish.

Is there something wrong with alphabeticalised herbs and spices or books? I ask because I do both but didn't realise I was sick. (Feels forehead in consternation.):) :) :)

The organization might not be that concerning, but it is probably a little unbalanced to stare down the significant other with death in my eyes when he inevitably mucks it up. I don't intend to. I wrangle whatever acerbic remark wants to escape, but cannot seem to stifle the hardened GTH look of silent judgement. Luckily, he finds it amusing (and lets the dog test his food for poison that night...just in case).
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I like your Autumn Lentil Blend.

In my defense, the reason for labeling it that way is primarily because that it how it is identified in the bulk aisle. If the significant other makes a grocery run, there is now an 85% chance that he will bring the right item home. Those are good enough odds for me.

To a lesser degree, it is also because I am OCD enough about the labeling to want all the containers to have equivalent lines of text:oops:
 
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