Sodium Citrate. Which one do I use?

Trying to read up on Sodium Citrate and notice there is not much info on it on if it's even worth messing with or if it makes a very noticeable difference..
Was thinking about ordering some, but see there is 3 different types of Sodium Citrate. Is one better then the other or is only 1 good for soap making? There must be something different about each one, but no idea what they are.
Was also wondering why Brambleberry doesn't sell it? They sell a lot of other misc items that I don't see being as popular as I would think SC would be.
Google's doesn't seem to be as helpful as I remember it being back in the day..

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You can use Citric Acid instead. It is readily available in the jam making section of any supermarket or in bulk from soap making suppliers or restaurant food suppliers.
I personally want to cut down the soap scum my soap causes so I use 10 g citric acid in 1kg of soap (I dissolve it in the water before I add the NaOH) and I just add an extra 6g of NaOH to each 1 kg batch.
Very easy.

According to DeeAnna (one of our resident science gurus):
How much citric acid should I use? Typical dosage is 10 g to 30 g citric acid powder for every 1,000 g oils (1% to 3% ppo). Use more for hard water, less for soft.
The dosage range is 0.1% to 3% ppo. The lowest dosage is recommended by Kevin Dunn, author of the book Scientific Soapmaking, specifically for protecting the soap from DOS (dreaded orange spots, also known as rancidity). The medium to higher dosages will reduce soap scum formation as well as protect against DOS.

Using citric acid above 2% may cause a layer of tiny white crystals to form on the outside of your soap as it ages. These citrate crystals will easily wash off and are harmless, but look unsightly. In informal discussions, it appears that a dosage of 1.5% to 2% or less does not cause this issue.

How much lye does it neutralize? 10 g citric acid neutralizes 6.24 g NaOH. 10 g citric acid neutralizes 8.42 g KOH. When using citric acid in your recipe, add the appropriate extra weight of lye needed to react with the acid. If you do not add any extra lye, the acid will increase the superfat in your soap.

To make soap using NaOH (sodium hydroxide), I would calculate the extra NaOH needed this way:
NaOH for citric acid, grams = Citric acid, grams X 6.24 / 10
Total NaOH, grams = NaOH for citric acid, grams + NaOH for saponification, grams
Example: I want to use 4.7 grams of citric acid to my soap. If I am making a bar soap with NaOH (sodium hydroxide), the extra NaOH needed to react with the citric acid will be:
NaOH for citric acid, grams = 4.7 X 6.24 / 10 = 2.9 grams extra NaOH.

Ok thank you
So pretty much the only benefit from using Sodium Citrate is not having to calculate the lye part of it?
Otherwise, using Citric Acid will give identical results if measured properly to a lye and oil mixture?
It would definitely be more convenient using Citric Acid.

Yes, you can use citric acid. It reacts with the lye to form sodium citrate. Yes, using sodium citrate just removes the need to re-figure the math.

PatrickH said:

Ok thank you
So pretty much the only benefit from using Sodium Citrate is not having to calculate the lye part of it?
Otherwise, using Citric Acid will give identical results if measured properly to a lye and oil mixture?
It would definitely be more convenient using Citric Acid.

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Yes.
The maths isn't very difficult if you just follow that formula. But make sure you ask here once you have your recipe amounts decided upon if you have any doubts.

Awesome, thank you
I'll be sure to post my next recipe before I make it.

I use Citric Acid in my soaps as I have quite hard water and it does help the lather and the scum issues. I allocate the CA a SAP No. of 0.624 and my spreadsheet works out the amount of lye required. I use it at 2% which seems to work for me.

I use Tetrasodium Edta

I use EDTA also. I don't have to do any math other than how much to put.

I changed to EDTA also, because I was tired of the crystals forming on the outside of my soaps from the CA.

cmzaha said:

I changed to EDTA also, because I was tired of the crystals forming on the outside of my soaps from the CA.

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Well that doesn't sound good at all. Do crystals usually form every time with Citric Acid? Or most or randomly?
I do not want wierd crystals forming on my soap.

As I said I use CA @ 2% and I have never had any crystals form unlike adding salt to harden for example where I have had some crystallisation. You might want to do a side by side comparison for your own interest and proof

I hope it is okay to tag along on this thread to ask a question, and hopefully PatrickH won't mind and/or also be interested to know, but does adding CA appear to affect trace at all?

HowieRoll said:

I hope it is okay to tag along on this thread to ask a question, and hopefully PatrickH won't mind and/or also be interested to know, but does adding CA appear to affect trace at all?

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Not in my experience.

Keep in mind that when using citric acid to make sodium citrate you are adding salt at "x" percentage. That is what causes the crystals to form during cure ( as the water "sweats" out).
I need to rinse most of my soaps ( just rinse the loaf before cutting) because I use both citric and acetic acids to make salts. One for hard water and one for hard soap bars.

High amounts of sodium citrate can soften up a recipe so start low and work up.

Steve

Thanks, Steve!