Getting gummy bear stage not molasses

I just started making LS. I have made 2 batches so far using Irishlass's recipe and technique.

Everything is fine up to the point I get the "flying bubbles" after SBing my lye solution and oils together. But instead of it getting to the 'thick molasses' stage I get a sudden and thick hard gummy bear stage. Both times.

The 1st batch I did the glycerin heating and adding the KOH to the glycerin, then to my heated oils in the crockpot.

The 2nd batch I tried the water for my lye solution and used the same amount of glycerin. Only I added the glycerin directly to my heated oils. As the glycerin and oils became hot in the crockpot I added my lye solution as soon as it was dissolved and at its hottest into the heated oils and glycerin. This second time after just 5 minutes of SBing I got to the flying bubbles stage. So I lidded the crockpot and kept it on warm. I checked on it periodically and only needed to whisk it once to make sure it stayed combined and oils didn't seperate out. This 2nd batch behaved much better than my 1st which kept seperating for about the first 10 minutes.

Anyway, after about 10 minutes from the time I added the lye solution the soap batter gelled to a hard gummy bear stage. I was expecting the thick molasses stage but this wasn't it.

So I took out a little bit with a spoon and tested it with a drop of phenalphalein (sp) and it tested clear.

Both of my batches gelled this way. Hard gel not molasses. also, they were both small 1 lb oil batches.

My 1st batch I used Summerbee Meadows soapcalc with 0 superfat and 100 KOH. The second batch I set it for 3% superfat and 90% KOH.

So why is my soap turning into a hard gel instead of a thick molassess? I must be doing something wrong... not enough liquid? I used what the calculator recommended but I think that somehow my crockpot allowed too much evaporation? or when I heated the glycerin too much evaporation?

I have no idea how to fix this or even if it should be fixed. But I have to say trying to dillute this thick gummy bear gel paste takes forever!!

You can relax- nothing is wrong. Actually, all is very good. What you are calling 'hard gel' is actually soap paste, which is the main goal. You just reached it quicker because you kept your batter on the heat. For what its worth, I mention in my instructions that I never keep my batter on the heat. I whisk the lye solution into my just warmed oils/fats off the heat until the flying bubble stage before covering it and leaving it alone to become paste on its own (still off the heat).

I don't know how much water/glycerin you used, but if you followed my recipe- you should have used a 25% lye concentration (1 part lye to 3 parts liquid- either water or glycerin)

Regarding the phenolphthalein test- this is something I never do. It is not anywhere as reliable as the zap test.

I'm not sure how much water loss you incurred when heating the batter, but the remedy for that is simple- just add more water during dilution. Start out small, though- don't add a whole lot of water all at once. I've found that even as little as a mL can be the difference between the soap coming out too thick or too thin.

Also- I like to use 3% sodium lactate in my dilution water- it helps to soften and break up those hard chunks in a more timely fashion.


IrishLass

Thank you Irishlass. That helps. I let the paste sit overnight and diluted it the next day. It made lovely ls... even though I was impatient and didn't let the paste 'cure'.... or does it need to?

Also, I was only using the crockpot heat to keep the oils hot. I actually did turn it off just before I added the lye solution. Then overthinking I turned it back on to the low setting to keep the batter warm while I was SBing.

I vote we start using "gummy bear stage" as a descriptor :mrgreen:

Just wanted to add I used 3% SL in the dillution so that helped.

My goal at this point is to learn to manage my liquids and get a better more workable paste. That gummy bear paste is hard to scrape out of the pot and even thou I am new to this I am sure it is much harder to dillute than a thick molasses paste.

So far I am loving making LS and really appreciate you taking the time to write out your recipe and technique IL!

If you added equal parts water to KOH, then an equal weight of glycerin, that is the problem in a nutshell. Too little liquid. I use a 3:1 ratio of liquid to KOH (25% lye concentration), as IrishLass said.

Paste does not need to "cure". It is good to go as soon as you have a zapless gel.

I use my crockpot in exactly the same way. Heat the oils, turn it off (or unplug it), add KOH/water, stickblend. Then it is already in the crockpot for dilution.

"Gummy bear stage" is indeed descriptive! I second the motion to adopt it!

Seawolfe said:

I vote we start using "gummy bear stage" as a descriptor :mrgreen:

Click to expand...

LOL It just reminded me of old dried out gummy bears!

Candybee said:

Thank you Irishlass. That helps. I let the paste sit overnight and diluted it the next day. It made lovely ls... even though I was impatient and didn't let the paste 'cure'.... or does it need to?

Click to expand...

Nope- the paste does not need to cure. It can be diluted as soon as it passes the zap-test.

Candybee said:

Also, I was only using the crockpot heat to keep the oils hot. I actually did turn it off just before I added the lye solution. Then overthinking I turned it back on to the low setting to keep the batter warm while I was SBing.

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The oils don't really need to be kept hot. I just heat mine until melted before adding the hot lye solution. The heat from the hot lye solution is plenty enough heat to get the reaction going.


IrishLass

@Suzie - For the 2nd batch I used equal ratio of water to KOH 1:1 and the full amount of liquid for the glycerin. For the 1 lb batch Summerbee gave me 10.19oz water and 3.4oz KOH. I used 3.4oz water with the KOH, and 10.19oz glycerin. I was trying to follow IL revised instructions for using water for the KOH but still using the full amount of glycerin... then lowering the liquid amount during the dillution. Hope that makes sense.

I just think too much evaporation is going on with my crockpot... the lid is not exactly a water tight seal. Maybe after I shut off the crockpot I need to seal the top off with saran or something then put the lid back on to keep moisture from leeching out.

I think, hope, I am getting a better handle on this. I will just heat the oils til warm. Then add my lye solution with the crockpot turned off... and quit overthinking the heat. I thought that was what I was doing but in writing this all out I see more clearly that it was not. So before I start adding more water/liquid I will concentrate on not overheating my batter and let the lye do the cooking for me.

Good plan. The really nice thing about this method of liquid soap-making is how forgiving it is. You might think you've ruined things beyond repair, but things are so easily fixable.


IrishLass

It is easy and I am glad I tried it.

I do have a question about the glycerin. When you use water for your KOH and the full amount of glycerin... do you heat the glycerin and add it to the lye solution or add the lye solution to the glycerin?

Honestly I did not want to heat the glycerin at all. Had a bad experience with heating it in my 1st batch of ls.

So I just poured the 10.19oz of room temp glycerin in with the oils to heat together. I assumed the glycerin and water from the lye solution would work together in the batter to be enough liquid for the lye to react to the oils. But honestly I wasn't sure it would work. I just wanted to try it because that would be the easiest way for me to do it.

I am math challenged, so let me re-phrase your liquid/KOH in a manner I understand to verify we are both talking about the same amounts:

3.4 oz KOH + 3.4 oz water

Then 6.8 oz glycerin added to the oils, right?

If so, that's what I do. Or, if I am feeling lazy, I use 5.9 oz water, then 5.9 oz glycerin (using the 10.19 oz called for on SBM).

I do not heat my glycerin. I add cold glycerin to the warm oils, add the hot KOH/water, and stickblend. Or, I add the cold glycerin after the KOH/water. It does not matter. It just does not need heating, other than what it gets with the KOH/water/saponification heat.

I also do not dilute my liquid soap with glycerin. Only with water.

Ditto what Susie said- no need to heat the glycerin if you are dissolving the KOH in water. I've just been adding my glycerin directly to my lye solution once it's made, but I don't think it matters if you add it to the oils or to the lye solution, as Susie said. It's just that that's how I started out doing it when I switched over from the Pharmacist's method, and since it worked fine for me, I just kept doing it that way.

I also don't dilute my soap with glycerin. Only with water (distilled).


IrishLass

I do like Susie -- room temp glycerin. The only time I've heated the soap batter was when I made paste with all water and I got impatient. It would have saponified without added heat ... I just wanted the batter to get to stable trace quicker so I could leave it unattended.

When I've added glycerin to dilute LS (did it as an experiment), it's cut the lather compared to diluting only with distilled water. I personally would stick with only water unless you like to tinker and compare like I do.

Yes Suzie. That is what I did and the amts I used... and I added cold glycerin to my heating oils. Once I made the lye solution up and KOH was fully dissolved I added asap to my oils/glycerin and started to SB away to flying bubbles stage. You read it right.

I am glad to hear I am not the only one who adds the cold glycerin to the oils for heating. For me that is a good step saver and personally I did not like the process of heating the glycerin and using that for my KOH solution. So disolving the KOH in water seperate from the glycerin is just easier for me.

I think I may actually keep my notes and use this gummy bear hard gel for something.... don't know what yet but it's got me thinking it could come in handy for something...

Candybee said:

I am glad to hear I am not the only one who adds the cold glycerin to the oils for heating. For me that is a good step saver and personally I did not like the process of heating the glycerin and using that for my KOH solution. So disolving the KOH in water seperate from the glycerin is just easier for me.

I think I may actually keep my notes and use this gummy bear hard gel for something.... don't know what yet but it's got me thinking it could come in handy for something...

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Candybee- I am ALL about less steps and keeping things simple! There is just no need to over complicate a simple process!

I forgot to add one of the reasons I like using water for my lye solution is I know I can dissolve tussah silk in it. I want to make ls with silk so that is next on the agenda to try out.

ETA: This is just me, but I believe there are about as many ways to make liquid soap as there are LS-ers! LOL The trick is to find the way that works best for you.
ETA Disclaimer: Before everyone jumps all over me, I think I should add that this is the way I made Glycerin LS the first time. I've progressed from there to include many of the tips already mentioned in this thread.

Not to confuse anyone, but rather to suggest why you got to the "hard gel" stage before you expected it... it's all about the heat, me thinks...

I use Carrie's (3Bees~1Flower) Glycerin LS technique. I don't use the crockpot, but rather I nuke the oils to 160°F (71°C) and place the pot on a warmer plate to keep it warm while I make the KOH/glycerin solution (which is hot, hot, hot!) I add the lye with my SB turned on. It then goes through all of the stages of becoming soap right in front of my eyes! In just 2 minutes, it's done! It will test bright pink at first. Let it rest for an hour. At that point, it tests clear with a drop of phenolphthalein. Just like on the video. Here's the link:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU[/ame]