Recipe with only hard oils?

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lenarenee

lenarenee

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My favorite commercial soap has only three ingredients on its label (Bela, Australian Soap Co), palm, pko, shea butter.

Yesterday I was in a World Market store with soaps made from Portugal, Italy, and France, and every one of them lists only those 3 ingredients.
This makes me very curious. Is this really a very common formula? Is there a mysterious bulk oil supplier that sells this pre-made mix to many different soap companies?

And if it's so wonderful, why haven't I seen soap makers on SMF using this recipe?

Anyway, I'm going to try to copy it but haven't used palm or pko in years. The Bela bar I've been using is very gentle and pleasant to use - more creamy, with a few large bubbles at the start of the lather so I'd guess there can't be more than 15% pko in it. And too much shea makes a draggy bar - so I would guess it's about 15%?

But that leaves 70% palm oil for the remaining recipe...?* Really?
What do you think?
 
pko, what is pko?

But in my limited experience I think it will be ok.
I made a test batch (2 - 4 ox bars) last week of 100 % coconut oil, with 20% lye discount. Is curing, so have not tried it yet. But why not try 3 hard oils? I guess you will have a good hard bar. But what do I know. I sort new at this, with only a year on my belt.

:)
 
lenarenee said:
My favorite commercial soap has only three ingredients on its label, palm, pko, shea butter. ... I'd guess there can't be more than 15% pko in it. And too much shea makes a draggy bar - so I would guess it's about 15%? But that leaves 70% palm oil for the remaining recipe...?* Really?
What do you think?
Click to expand...
Really! I think you should go for it! I use PKO & palm... to me, soap made with those two oils has an elegant feel. I can only imagine what shea butter adds... quite lovely, I should think. OH! Almost forgot... use refined shea instead of raw shea... for a better bar. I just made soap with some raw shea I wanted to use up. It weirded out on me. Odd texture. I had 5 oz left over after filling the mold. I nuked it for about a minute. Let it cool for 5 minutes, then hand-kneaded it and put it in a single soap mold. I really like it.

SunRise - PKO is Palm Kernel Oil - a good sub for coconut oil in any recipe. Remember to recalculate your NaOH tho.
 
SunRiseArts said:
pko, what is pko?

But in my limited experience I think it will be ok.
I made a test batch (2 - 4 ox bars) last week of 100 % coconut oil, with 20% lye discount. Is curing, so have not tried it yet. But why not try 3 hard oils? I guess you will have a good hard bar. But what do I know. I sort new at this, with only a year on my belt.

:)
Click to expand...

Palm Kernel Oil.
 
Obsidian said:
I've used 75% lard before, I don't see why using a high amount of palm would be much different.
Click to expand...

I can see one thing different: waxy soap. A high lard soap has never felt waxy to me.

@ Lena- If I had to gauge a recipe with palm, palm kernel, and shea butter, 60-65% palm, 15-20% palm kernel, and 15-20% shea would be a thing. However, I have only used palm kernel flakes NOT the oil (if it makes a difference).
 
lenarenee said:
My favorite commercial soap has only three ingredients on its label (Bela, Australian Soap Co), palm, pko, shea butter.

Yesterday I was in a World Market store with soaps made from Portugal, Italy, and France, and every one of them lists only those 3 ingredients.
This makes me very curious. Is this really a very common formula? Is there a mysterious bulk oil supplier that sells this pre-made mix to many different soap companies?

And if it's so wonderful, why haven't I seen soap makers on SMF using this recipe?

Anyway, I'm going to try to copy it but haven't used palm or pko in years. The Bela bar I've been using is very gentle and pleasant to use - more creamy, with a few large bubbles at the start of the lather so I'd guess there can't be more than 15% pko in it. And too much shea makes a draggy bar - so I would guess it's about 15%?

But that leaves 70% palm oil for the remaining recipe...?* Really?
What do you think?
Click to expand...

There's international standards for soap noodles. The "standard" mix is called 80 20, which is a general soap noodle base that is supplied to the manufacturer, then they add their colours, fragrances and additives and mill it. Triple milling gives the soap its texture and incorporates the additions to the noodles, before the soap is extruded (similar to how spagetti is made). Sometimes the soap is pressed into a mould, but often it is just cut and sold as rectangular "vegetable soap" bars.

In Australia, there are a limited number of companies that have been around for a very long time doing this - they also sell their products as unbranded completed soaps, so there's brands that appear (and disappear) over the years that are basically retailers of a "home-brand" product.

The 80 in this formula is the palm oil (often bleached red palm oil) and the 20 is the palm kernel oil (for the bubbles). There is a little bit more, but a search on 8020 soap noodles will get you some detailed percentages for the ingredients.
 
Aha! I knew it had to be something like that, but wow - why not some olive oil or something in that mixture? Cost? Availability?

I see Camden Grey sells soap noodles.

Now I wonder about U.S. soap since most of the bars in my grocery store aren't 80/20 veggie recipes. Does the US make most of it's own soap noodles instead of buying from overseas? We do produce a lot of tallow - which is vey common in our soap.

Going to have to visit Mr. Google, except its past my bedtime.
 
lenarenee said:
Now I wonder about U.S. soap since most of the bars in my grocery store aren't 80/20 veggie recipes. Does the US make most of it's own soap noodles instead of buying from overseas? We do produce a lot of tallow - which is vey common in our soap.

Going to have to visit Mr. Google, except its past my bedtime.
Click to expand...

Our "major" soap brands are often tallow based. There is a tallow rendering factory about 30 miles from me - that one doesn't smell nearly as good as the "cookie" factory does on production days!

Key word, if you want to search for manufacturers in your country (when you are looking for the big guys, who are in a completely different ball-park to the millers of purchased noodles), is "oleochemical".

These oleochemical companies often control the production from beginning to end - so the company that renders the tallow will also make the stearic acid and will be the maker of (usually many different brands) of the final soaps you see on the shelves.
 
SaltedFig said:
There's international standards for soap noodles. The "standard" mix is called 80 20, which is a general soap noodle base that is supplied to the manufacturer, then they add their colours, fragrances and additives and mill it. Triple milling gives the soap its texture and incorporates the additions to the noodles, before the soap is extruded (similar to how spagetti is made). Sometimes the soap is pressed into a mould, but often it is just cut and sold as rectangular "vegetable soap" bars.

In Australia, there are a limited number of companies that have been around for a very long time doing this - they also sell their products as unbranded completed soaps, so there's brands that appear (and disappear) over the years that are basically retailers of a "home-brand" product.

The 80 in this formula is the palm oil (often bleached red palm oil) and the 20 is the palm kernel oil (for the bubbles). There is a little bit more, but a search on 8020 soap noodles will get you some detailed percentages for the ingredients.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing this info, Fig! You are truly an asset to this forum. I'm SO happy you decided to join us. (((SALTEDFIG)))
 
saltedfig said:
our "major" soap brands are often tallow based. There is a tallow rendering factory about 30 miles from me - that one doesn't smell nearly as good as the "cookie" factory does on production days!

Key word, if you want to search for manufacturers in your country (when you are looking for the big guys, who are in a completely different ball-park to the millers of purchased noodles), is "oleochemical".

These oleochemical companies often control the production from beginning to end - so the company that renders the tallow will also make the stearic acid and will be the maker of (usually many different brands) of the final soaps you see on the shelves.
Click to expand...

good to know! Thanks!
 
Just keep in mind that using noodles is no different than rebatching your own grated-up handmade soap, and they will turn out looking just as rustic as regular rebatched soap because of their inability to melt smoothly, unless, that is, you have soap finishing equipment such as a triple milling machine with pressurized rollers, etc...that companies such as Bela Australian Soap Co use on theirs (Lenarenee's favorite commercial soap). According to their FAQ page they use triple-milling equipment and put the soap though twice, then they put it through a 'double refiner', all of which is able to give their soap get that dense, ultra-smooth, long-lasting quality.

For what it's worth, Ponte Verde has been selling pre-made, grated-up CP-soap base (palm/coconut) to home soapers for this purpose for awhile now. Brambleberry does so as well, and they have 3 different formulas to choose from.

You can always just make your own, noodles, though. The first few batches of CP I ever made were for re-batching purposes.... I made a couple of unscented/uncolored batches, grated them up and rebatched a few soaps at a time at my leisure, which worked great for me for the period of time that it took for me to eventually got over my fear of working with lye and was able to compare how less time consuming it was and how much prettier & smoother my soap came out just making CP the normal way.


IrishLass :)
 
Thanks for that input, Irish! Good to know! In my Newbie days, I did more rebatches than I care to admit to -- and not always by choice! It was a good learning-from-failure experience -- one that allows me to state that I've never thrown out a batch of soap.

What appealed to me was the fact that the noodles are saponified, so the wait time for cure is greatly diminished. Also, rebatching with heavy cream at a rate of 1 cup PPNoodles suggests more liquid than I would use in a rebatch and I would expect a smoother result. Not sure. ??? Also, in addition to adding butter fat (from the cream) to the formula, using cream adds protein -- i.e. milk is the recommended liquid for rebatching vegie soaps -- water for animal farts.

As for "triple milling" -- I once had a short deadline to get a batch of soap made. I made it; cut, grated & rebatched the next day; cut, grated & rebatched the next day. Allowed it to rest for a few days and shipped it out by the end of the week. (Before everyone has a heart attack, there was time for curing on the the other end. No worries.) That particular soap was close to a triple-milled soap. Waaaay too much work to do every time tho. Lazy daisy here. :mrgreen:
 
I travel so much that I have this seemingly endless supply of hotel soaps, which I still collect because it became a habit when I was using them to make home made laundry soap. Every few months, I'd whip out my Cusinart & finely grade all my soaps until I had several gallon baggies full of grated soap. Then when I needed more laundry soap, I didn't always have to grate more soap each time.

Anyway, once I decided to add some of the grated hotel soap that I had on hand in a rebatch soap. Well, I have to admit they were the hardest, I mean rock-hardest bars of soap I'd ever come across. Too hard for me to use. I learned I don't like rock hard bars of soap. Drop it on my toes and it hurts. Edges too sharp and it hurts to use the soap in the shower. I had not realized that syndet bars could become so rock hard when used in rebatch. It was like trying to take a shower with a brick of steel.

I much prefer rebatching regular home made lye soap. They don't end up feeling like I could injure myself using them. :)

(I know, off topic again. Somebody help me!)

Okay back on topic. I've made soap with 100% Cocoa Butter, and that came out fine, but of course it lacked a bit of bubbliness. I've made soap with more hard oils than soft at times and the only problem I have with them is they thicken up so much faster, thus giving me less time to work with them before coloring and molding.

I don't have a lot of experience with Palm Oil in soapmaking. I was given some PKO, which I do enjoy using and when I run out, I will replenish my supply. I bought some Palm Shortening to see what it was like to work with. To me, it did not feel like or act like a hard oil because it was so soft and once melted with the other other oils, it was just like working with soft oils. So I wonder if using regular Palm Oil is a lot different from using Palm Shortening, in terms of how the batter behaves, as well as how the soap sets up.
 
Zany_in_CO said:
What appealed to me was the fact that the noodles are saponified, so the wait time for cure is greatly diminished. Also, rebatching with heavy cream at a rate of 1 cup PPNoodles suggests more liquid than I would use in a rebatch and I would expect a smoother result. Not sure. ???
Click to expand...

That would depend on how long they've let their noodles cure before selling them. Based on the amount of milk they suggest adding, I'm guessing that the noodles are well cured and on the dryer side of things. The wording of the directions on their site lead me to believe that it more than likely won't be any smoother than the regular rebatches that we are used to making. For example, their directions say to either stir or mash the heated noodle/cream mixture with a potato masher until the mixture is of heavy, thick mashed potato consistency, then add your additives and scoop into your molds. Sounds like regular rebatch to me. Also- although they recommend a 2-week dry out period before using, they also note that it won't hurt to wait even longer than that to avoid the mistake of using it too early and have it melt away too fast.

Zany_in_CO said:
Also, in addition to adding butter fat (from the cream) to the formula, using cream adds protein -- i.e. milk is the recommended liquid for rebatching vegie soaps -- water for animal farts.
Click to expand...

(red bolding mine). :lol: I know you meant to type 'fats', but I'm glad you didn't because it gave me a much needed belly laugh. That's the best typo I've seen in a few weeks and it made my day. :)


IrishLass :)
 
earlene said:
I travel so much that I have this seemingly endless supply of hotel soaps, which I still collect because it became a habit when I was using them to make home made laundry soap. Every few months, I'd whip out my Cusinart & finely grade all my soaps until I had several gallon baggies full of grated soap. Then when I needed more laundry soap, I didn't always have to grate more soap each time.

Anyway, once I decided to add some of the grated hotel soap that I had on hand in a rebatch soap. Well, I have to admit they were the hardest, I mean rock-hardest bars of soap I'd ever come across. Too hard for me to use. I learned I don't like rock hard bars of soap. Drop it on my toes and it hurts. Edges too sharp and it hurts to use the soap in the shower. I had not realized that syndet bars could become so rock hard when used in rebatch. It was like trying to take a shower with a brick of steel.

I much prefer rebatching regular home made lye soap. They don't end up feeling like I could injure myself using them. :)

(I know, off topic again. Somebody help me!)

Okay back on topic. I've made soap with 100% Cocoa Butter, and that came out fine, but of course it lacked a bit of bubbliness. I've made soap with more hard oils than soft at times and the only problem I have with them is they thicken up so much faster, thus giving me less time to work with them before coloring and molding.

I don't have a lot of experience with Palm Oil in soapmaking. I was given some PKO, which I do enjoy using and when I run out, I will replenish my supply. I bought some Palm Shortening to see what it was like to work with. To me, it did not feel like or act like a hard oil because it was so soft and once melted with the other other oils, it was just like working with soft oils. So I wonder if using regular Palm Oil is a lot different from using Palm Shortening, in terms of how the batter behaves, as well as how the soap sets up.
Click to expand...

I wish I knew. I'm using the walmart shortening, which is a tallow/palm blend. I actually kinda like it so far but the soaps are curing still.
 
I had some fun delving into oleochemical and 80/20 soap noodles.

Was at a gift store and picked up a couple of 80/20 guest size soaps just to try and compare and I gleefully get to declare them "sucky"! Well, compared to my preferred Bela/Austrialian soap company's model with contain shea butter with their pko and palm.

So, when I get the supplies, I think I'll start with a 75% palm, 20 pko, and 5% shea butter, and adjust from there. (But I'd really like BB to have a sale...right now!)
 

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