My Perfect Recipe Has No Working Time

So I've pretty much settled on my favorite recipe for function of the finished soap. It's got the perfect amount and quality of bubbles, IMO, is nice and hard, and I've not had any problems with DOS. My problem is that - try as I might - I can't get this recipe to give me enough working time for anything more than the most basic ITP swirl. I wanted to use this spot to list the recipe and everything I've tried in hopes that one of you can think of something I've missed.

First, the recipe:

Usually 1680 gram total oils at 30% NaOH concentration and 7% SF, although sometimes I halve everything to only fill one mold.

25% Walmart GV shortening (tallow and palm)
25% Lard (usually Armor)
20% Coconut oil (76F)
20% Olive oil
5% Avocado oil
5% Castor oil

4 tsp citrate
4 tsp lactate
4 tsp sugar
3 tsp salt
fragrance at 4-6% typically

This mix typically comes to trace really fast, pretty much as soon as I have a good emulsion, I've got pudding 5 minutes later. That is without further stick blending, too. So far, I've found nothing to slow that down. I've tried hot (150F) and cool (100F). Hot is a little faster, but cool doesn't give me enough more time to do any good. I've swung lye concentrations 2% in both directions around thirty with no noticeable change. Obviously I'm avoiding accelerating scents when trying these designs.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? I can't go lower than 100F or the mixed oils start getting cloudy and thick. I've been thinking of trying the 5% KOH thing; would that potentially give more working time?

I don't know much about all the chemistry, but wouldn't salt and lactate be hardening ingredients? Might those cause the recipe to move quickly? What happens if you leave those out, or leave the salt out?

What if you don't stick blend? Does it wisk quickly enough to give you a light trace without going to pudding?

I'm assuming you don't want changes in the oils you are using, since this is the combination you like best.

I have always used granulated sugar. I've recently been using (tip from the Amy Warden challenges) powdered sugar - 1 tsp PPO dissolved in the water before the lye. I haven't done a side by side with a timer, but it seems like it might slow trace a bit.

Your recipe is similar to mine, but I don't use tallow as it's not available locally and I haven't ordered any. I use lard usually at 40-50%. When I want slower trace for working time, I keep the castor at 2-3%, and have never used more than 5% in any recipe as far as I can remember. I also try to keep temps at around 100. I use more OO than you do, and 10% of avocado/sunflower/etc.

ETA: I just read Weaversport's post, and that is a good point that I missed. I use sodium lactate but not salt.

The only thing I know to suggest is to try hand mixing instead of using the stick blender. Stir to just the emulsion stage before adding colors.

Taking the lye concentration even higher can slow trace dramatically.

There is a thread from earlier this year where lionprincess talked about experimenting with it: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=62756

SaltedFig said:

Taking the lye concentration even higher can slow trace dramatically.

There is a thread from earlier this year where lionprincess talked about experimenting with it: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=62756

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I find that subject confusing, because I haven't been able to understand the consensus on which direction to go to get more working time. That very thread you linked has people advocating both directions. :-?

Are there really different opinions, or does the confusion revolve around a misunderstanding between high concentration of lye vs high water? Confusing which direction "high" refers to, maybe?

Is it less water/higher lye concentration equals longer to trace? Or more water/lower lye concentration equals longer to trace?

Thx saltedfig! I was thinking about that when I saw his dilemma.

40% is typed into "lye concentration" on soapcalc. That's a 1.5 water to 1 lye ratio. Try it with a REAL behaving fo. I suggest neroli shea blossom by bb, black amber musk from wsp, or ah...what's newbies go to fo for blends... it is a citrus note fo from bb. Slips my mind, i will try to find it in my notes in a second. My lye is room temp, oils warmed to melt then cooled off. I am guessing they arent over 105 degrees because i use the oils
Co almond castor lard, sometimes i add pko or shea or avo. So it would be just at the melt point of the highest (i assume pko). I sb, stir, sb, stir, and go barely, barely to emulsion.

I dump micas in, no carrier oil haha. I think i am in the minority there. Blend with a wisk, add fo, blend with a wisk and begin immediately. I tried once to add an A fo to my oils 1st before lye water which some have suggested to slow things down, used higher water than usual, and it was my only soap on a stick! I am not convinced adding fo to oils first buys time, but meh, I may be wrong.

If you add water based colorants it will A that portion. It really does work to slow trace *IF your fo is not on the naughty list*. I am SURE you know emulsion vs trace, been here a long time, but newbies video is great for seeing it. Other than that, i would cut the salt and or SL. At 50% solid at room temp oils, I don't see why you need it (imo). I add sugar 1 Tbs ppo and 2% SC, sometimes silk fwiw.

EDIT
lychee red tea! theres a list I and newbie rattled off of behaving fos in low water (40% lye). If you want it, let me know and I will repost it.

My understanding was the salt and lactate only added to hardness of the bar for earlier unmolding/cutting, not that they accelerated trace. Is that wrong?

BrewerGeorge said:

My understanding was the salt and lactate only added to hardness of the bar for earlier unmolding/cutting, not that they accelerated trace. Is that wrong?

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Dunno on SL, but salt bars thicken like sludge fast. So I would *assume* it is adding thickening, maybe not trace persay. I am no chemist lol, but that's my guess.

I just did the math, youre using a 5lb mold, is that right? Wouldnt think salt @ 3 tsp would cause so much havoc...
Someone on teach soap forum mentions SL "supposedly speeds up trace". Soap queen mentions it can thicken lotions. I am going out on a limb and say that maybe the combo is thickening things, but not necessarily speeding trace. My soap goes to emulsion in, like, dont know, 20 to 40 seconds. So maybe it is emulsion for you, then thickening up from additives...just a thought. Also, keep lye water room temp or cooled significantly when trying this. If I don't my high lye goes to medium trace fast!

lionprincess00 said:

I just did the math, youre using a 5lb mold, is that right? Wouldnt think salt @ 3 tsp would cause so much havoc...
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1680g of oil and the 30% lye solution is just right to fill two CC 1501 molds to the top with nothing left over. Per spec, that would be 84 oz worth of mold, so yeah 5-ish.

it is similar to mine, I soap cool as cool as possible, but I do not use salt, just sugar Edta and SL, I bring it to emulsion and devide the emulsion for colors. the last few soaps I had to wait cause it was too thin
Lard slows the trace, tallow not so much, I would say it is the salt you use

Hmmmm (got my thinking cap on).....when you say you soaped hot (150) or cool (100)- were both your lye and oils at 150 or 100? Or was one significantly cooler than the other?

One of the 2 main formulas that I soap on a regular basis contains a high number of hard fats (50% total hard fats made up of a combo of hydrogenated PKO flakes/tallow/lard/mango butter), plus 11.5% castor and usually TD- all those fun things that can cause things to move fast if I'm not careful, but I'm able to get 30 - 60 minutes of play time out of it with a 33% lye concentration..... depending on my FO.

I don't know if this will help or not, but all I can offer to you is my method of madness:

1) I heat my hard fats until completely melted, then I add my room temp oils and bring the temp up to anywhere between 125F- 130F before taking them off the heat and letting them cool down to between 110F-112F (kinda-sorta tempering them in a way- someone somewhere gave me the tip, but I can't remember who. Anyway- it works for me).

2) During that gradual cool-down time I'll usually stick-blend my pre-diluted-in-glycerin TD into the melted fats/oils (if using) and also my room-temp extra water amount that contains my 5% sugar and my EDTA (I soap with a 50% master-batch solution), which helps to bring the temp down, but not all the way down nor too quickly.

Oh- in the meantime while all of this is going on, I have my batch amount of room temp 50% master-batch lye solution/3% SL mixture sitting in a hot water bath to bring its temp up to 110F-112F. When both the oils and lye are within the range of 110F-112F*, I add my lye solution, hand-stirring it in before briefly stick-blending then hand-stirring/SBing to just the emulsification stage before separating the batter out to color, add FO, etc..

*All also goes well for my formula if my lye solution is 115F and my oils are 105F. Basically, just as long as the temps of each are such that my batter is able to keep from going below 110F (my sweet spot), it's all good and I can add my room temp additives such as colorants and FO and have plenty of time to play....as long as my FO cooperates, that is. .

If the temps of each are such that they cause my batter to go much lower than 110F, all bets are off- chances are very good it will go through pseudo-trace (very thick pudding stage) even before I add any colorants or FO.

I suppose I could just as easily heat my oils hot enough and not put my lye solution in a hot water bath at all, but I haven't played around with that method yet since my above method is working so well for me. Maybe one of these days I'll sacrifice a batch or two to find out.


IrishLass

I wonder if adding a tiny bit of vegetable glycerine would help? I notice that some of my colorants will thicken up that portion of the soap batter, that I don't have a lot of time to work. (TD and some of the green micas, for example.)

But I did notice that vegetable glycerine loosens up the batter, although there is a fine line between enough and too much. Too much and the soap just doesn't harden up at all. So it's tricky.

BrewerGeorge said:

Is it less water/higher lye concentration equals longer to trace? Or more water/lower lye concentration equals longer to trace?

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Answer: more water/lower lye concentration equals longer to trace

Tip: To avoid seizing, I calculate the formula at 38% water (SoapCalc Default amount). For 60 oz oils, my normal batch, I hold back 4 oz. COLD water straight from the fridge. If the batch starts to seize, I dump the water in and stir by hand to calm it down.

"...4 tsp citrate
4 tsp lactate
4 tsp sugar
3 tsp salt..."

Inst and amongst everything else ... have you considered that you are adding 11 tsp of various salts to your recipe? That's the total of the citrate (a salt), the lactate (a salt), and the table salt (a salt -- duh!) They may have the effect of salting out the soap that's forming and/or doing other strange things.

Have you broken down the logic of why you're using all three? Have you ever made this recipe without those additives (and the sugar) to see if it behaves better?

PS -- I don't see that using 5% KOH and 95% NaOH causes any change in the behavior of the soap batter compared with using all NaOH.

SaltedFig said:

Taking the lye concentration even higher can slow trace dramatically.

There is a thread from earlier this year where lionprincess talked about experimenting with it: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=62756

Click to expand...

My go to recipe is very close except for Palm & tallow I use tallow in the same percentage as the shortening with lard but use 15% avocado or canola to. No matter what it moves fast. I tried a 40% lye concentration. It moved like a freight train. This was before I added the go.

BrewerGeorge said:

I find that subject confusing, because I haven't been able to understand the consensus on which direction to go to get more working time. That very thread you linked has people advocating both directions. :-?

Are there really different opinions, or does the confusion revolve around a misunderstanding between high concentration of lye vs high water? Confusing which direction "high" refers to, maybe?

Is it less water/higher lye concentration equals longer to trace? Or more water/lower lye concentration equals longer to trace?

Click to expand...

I use a wire wisk and one burst of the sb. Separate at emulsion and mix colors as quick as possible. I agree it is a great recipe.

BrewerGeorge said:

Is it less water/higher lye concentration equals longer to trace? Or more water/lower lye concentration equals longer to trace?

Click to expand...

Both! :mrgreen:

I haven't got to the exact point of tip-over in the high lye concentation percentages, but I do know that at about 47% lye concentration, I have a LOT of time to play (much more than I get with high water concentrations, which also add time but not nearly as much). Watch the lye at high concentrations - it burns quick.

I'm the same on the KOH thought - I haven't noticed any obvious difference in time (but on the other hand, I haven't been looking at it either).

*Added - Just noticed your post Carolyn - I'm not sure at 40% - that's more lionpricesses/newbies experiment. I do know that it gets faster and faster the higher the concentration of lye - it's the tipping point, where it slows back down to a crawl, that I haven't looked closely at (yet).

Zany_in_CO said:

Answer: more water/lower lye concentration equals longer to trace

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SaltedFig said:

Both! :mrgreen:

I haven't got to the exact point of tip-over in the high lye concentation percentages, but I do know that at about 47% lye concentration, I have a LOT of time to play (much more than I get with high water concentrations, which also add time but not nearly as much). Watch the lye at high concentrations - it burns quick.
...

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See why I'm confused? :headbanging:

cmzaha said:

My go to recipe is very close except for Palm & tallow I use tallow in the same percentage as the shortening with lard but use 15% avocado or canola to. No matter what it moves fast. I tried a 40% lye concentration. It moved like a freight train. This was before I added the go.

I use a wire wisk and one burst of the sb. Separate at emulsion and mix colors as quick as possible. I agree it is a great recipe.

Click to expand...

That's really good to know. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes, too. The shortening is tallow and hydrogenated palm, so it's probably pretty full of stearic.

Maybe I'll just resign myself to using all lard (50% total) when I want more time. That's still super excellent soap if not quite as opaque and hard as the tallow.