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Old 12-28-2016, 02:31 AM   #31
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No, it doesn't grain out. Graining is driven by concentration of salt or alkali in the water phase. The alkali concentration in the lye heavy Castile recipe is only about 15% at its highest. That lye concentration is not nearly enough to make soap insoluble in the water layer, especially since the lye concentration is dropping in the water phase in response to the ongoing saponification reaction.

The real issue is that the emulsion created by stick blending that much water with a relatively small amount of fat is highly unstable.



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Old 12-28-2016, 07:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeAnna View Post
No, it doesn't grain out. Graining is driven by concentration of salt or alkali in the water phase. The alkali concentration in the lye heavy Castile recipe is only about 15% at its highest. That lye concentration is not nearly enough to make soap insoluble in the water layer, especially since the lye concentration is dropping in the water phase in response to the ongoing saponification reaction.

The real issue is that the emulsion created by stick blending that much water with a relatively small amount of fat is highly unstable.
Either hypothesis could be right, or they could both be somehow, in the absence of experiments to prove them.

One of the effects I watched with my own eyes was the soap graining out as it formed, much as in the early stage of HP but not as dramatic because no heat. I stirred for a real long time without blending to see what would happen. Hours. I saw flakes of soap forming gradually and floating around at the top, but the solution underneath stayed crystal clear -- so I'm pretty convinced of what I was looking at. And the process just locked up.

The boiled soap makers always started with a weak lye -- 15% at most, because more would inhibit saponication. I guess it's more liable to be a problem at the beginning. If the soap in this recipe dissolved in the water as the process proceeded, I think it would work with time, as suggested by the pictures and description.

What kind of emulsion is that anyway? Very weird. It must be water in oil, because you can put a glob of the stick blended stuff in water and it just keeps its shape and sits at the bottom of the bowl.


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Old 12-28-2016, 08:11 PM   #33
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Reporting on my impressions of using this soap at 6 months cure with a comparison to 15-month cured Castile.

In any case, I do believe that even if some say you can use a Dual Lye Castile earlier (at 4-6 weeks), I would NOT recommend it. Even at 6 months, it's not anywhere near as mild as it should be in my opinion.
Hi Earlene thank you for posting your results.
Have you compared this KOH additive to salt or vinegar?

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Old 12-31-2016, 06:50 PM   #34
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Hi Earlene thank you for posting your results.
Have you compared this KOH additive to salt or vinegar?

So far, no, not in Castile soap. That is a plan, however.

I am joining the 'annual New Year Castile Soap Project' and will make them then. Probably tomorrow or the next day.

I have been using vinegar in soap for a couple of months, though not in a pure olive oil soap. I've only made 3 batches total of Castile soap so far. None had added salt. I have to develop my plan of how many & what size batches for this project, as well as what additives to include in each batch, so the exact recipes.

Thanks for asking.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:55 PM   #35
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So far, no, not in Castile soap. That is a plan, however.

I am joining the 'annual New Year Castile Soap Project' and will make them then. Probably tomorrow or the next day.

I have been using vinegar in soap for a couple of months, though not in a pure olive oil soap. I've only made 3 batches total of Castile soap so far. None had added salt. I have to develop my plan of how many & what size batches for this project, as well as what additives to include in each batch, so the exact recipes.

Thanks for asking.
The other important thing when testing Castile is how long the bar lasts with use. If it goes mushy half way through then I consider it a fail.

After all this then there is the other variable - the water you use in the shower. I don't know if it makes a huge difference or not. I don't get a lot of "snott" on my long cure single lye Castile. I don't know if it's my perception, my OO, my cure time or my water. I have to get others to test my soaps to cut out some of these variables - perception and water.

I have just started doing the same tests as you with all my recipes. It is very interesting reading your reviews. Thank you.

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Old 12-31-2016, 10:38 PM   #36
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The other important thing when testing Castile is how long the bar lasts with use. If it goes mushy half way through then I consider it a fail.

After all this then there is the other variable - the water you use in the shower. I don't know if it makes a huge difference or not. I don't get a lot of "snott" on my long cure single lye Castile. I don't know if it's my perception, my OO, my cure time or my water. I have to get others to test my soaps to cut out some of these variables - perception and water.

I have just started doing the same tests as you with all my recipes. It is very interesting reading your reviews. Thank you.
Good points. I guess I have so many soaps that I simply cannot judge how long any one of them lasts in the shower! I alternate between this bar, then that bar, then another one because I want to try so many of them out, that none of them gets used exclusively from start to finish. My husband, however, uses one bar of soap and finishes it before he moves on to another. Maybe I should enlist him in that task - determining how long a Castile will last in the shower vs his usual coffee soap that he loves so much. And does it get mushy with use. But then, mine are probably too young for that as yet. Maybe in the future...

And water certainly does make a difference. We have a water softener and when it runs its weekly cycle the water is noticeably very soft that day in particular, softer than any other day of the week. It took me a long time to get used to softened water; at first I didn't think the soap was rinsing off my body at all and that was commercial soap, not hand-crafted soap.


It's funny how we think about how long a bar of soap lasts in the shower. I don't think I ever considered that in my life before. We just used the same bar of soap, and replaced it when it got too small. We always used the same bar of soap and never anything different unless the store didn't have our 'usual' in stock. My goodness things have changed since I started making soap.
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:00 PM   #37
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To add an interesting twist to the ongoing debate about high oleic soaps, please see Auntie Clara's blog post http://auntieclaras.com/2016/08/soap...-2016-edition/ about the various soaps she and her family used while on vacation in Italy this past season. The second soap she discusses in the blog is a bar of her 2 1/2 year old castile.

Here's a quote from this article that I found especially interesting:

"...I’m now beginning to see that the rather prohibitive size and shape of traditional olive oil soaps like Marseille and Aleppo blocks, is not just an inconvenient coincidence. Those soaps come in blocks specifically because you aren’t meant to twirl them in your hands, dip them in bath water or a shower stream and rub them over your body. You’re meant to stand the soap away from water, rub the block with a damp cloth or sponge and then use the cloth or sponge to work up a lather and rub your skin.

"Used that way a bar of olive oil soap will last a very long time – and you’ll probably get just as clean. Easily arranged at home perhaps, but not so convenient when travelling...."
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:44 PM   #38
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Such an interesting point you bring up DeeAnna...which to me makes a lot of sense. Some of my soap fans say they can't believe how long my current soaps last; one friend had a bar at a sink for over a year. Another friend has a CP shamrock from March still going strong at his work sink.I'm imagining a block of soap in an arid environment like Aleppo kept from running water or allowed to dry out between usages anywhere with simply a damp cloth over it lasting one helluva long time...
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Old 01-15-2017, 12:49 AM   #39
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Thank you, DeeAnna. I will check out her blogpost.

Coincidentally, some of my Castile soap I made this past week is in blocks like that. I thought I'd try it to see if I like the shape. The jury is still out, of course because I won't be using them for a year.
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Old Yesterday, 01:44 PM   #40
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I used one of the pink ones in the tub yesterday. No sliminess noticed. It was hard as a rock going in, sank to the bottom when I dropped it in the tub of course, but I retrieved it and placed in back in the soap dish. At one year, this dual lye Castile is quite nice. Lathers beautifully.



A surprise came when I turned on the whirlpool jets toward the end of the bath and got a thick layer of soapy bubbles forming on the top of the water. Granted, I had put in a tiny bath bomb at the end as well, but it had completely disipated before I turned on the jets, but I can't rule out the effect of that in the water. And I had also washed my hair at the very start and rinsed the shampoo out in the bath water. So the combo of all three probably played a part in the thick lathery bubbles that formed. But it was still a surprise. I've never got that many thick lathery bubbles in a whirl pool bath at the end of the bath using only a bath bomb; not even using only bubble bath. And I don't tend to sit around in a bath for a really long time either, so I haven't done this kind of thing very often.

In any case, I am happy with my dual lye Castile at one year. I do have to be careful when using this soap to set it to dry more than with some other soaps, however. I noticed this morning the underside is still wet and somewhat gooey where it didn't get enough air circulation to dry out. When I had it at the kitchen sink, I always stood it upright to dry out and didn't run into a problem with a gooey wet underside like after the tub bath, when I did not stand it fully upright.

So the take-away at this point is proper drying out between uses. But that's necessary with all soaps, anyway.


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