how soft is too soft-the numbers game

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Nite Hawk

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I like a harder bar of soap I try to run my numbers around 40 for hardness, but I am wanting to make a high conditioning soap for winter time, and I know that hardness and conditioning tend to be "antagonistic" when it gets harder the conditioning tends to go down.
I am looking at a conditioning score of 61 but the hardness factor is 37. Would you consider that too soft?
thanks..
 
I like a harder bar of soap I try to run my numbers around 40 for hardness.
I am looking at a conditioning score of 61 but the hardness factor is 37. Would you consider that too soft?
thanks..

The numbers are really not significant for either conditioning or hardness.
Put in 100% OO which makes a rock hard soap after 12 months and you will see that it scores really low.

The only way to work these things (conditioning and hardness) out is trial and error or asking on the forum.
 
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The names (cleansing, hardness, bubbly, etc) are misleading to beginner soap makers. The "numbers" are simply the % of certain fatty acids in your recipe. For example "Hardness" is the % of lauric, myristic, palmitic, and stearic acids. That's all.

Yes, these particular fatty acids tend to make soap that is hard-like-a-rock at the time of unmolding. But if you absolutely believe a given "hardness" number is the ONLY way to get a hard soap, you would be mistaken. As others are pointing out, additives that aren't included in the "numbers" and "special case" soaps such as 100% olive oil soap can also create a hard-like-a-rock soap.

It is true as "hardness" goes up, "conditioning" goes down. But what, really, does that mean? The "conditioning" number is actually the total % of oleic, linoleic, linolenic, and ricinoleic acids in the recipe. In other words, all the typical fatty acids for soaping that SoapCalc does not include in the "hardness" number. So I honestly don't pay attention to the "conditioning" number anymore -- once I get the other fatty acids in the range I want, the "conditioning" fatty acids fall into place without any special work on my part. Furthermore, soap doesn't condition ... it cleans ... so the real goal of a good bath soap recipe is not "conditioning" but rather that it is sufficiently mild to the skin.

***

I look for a balance of all the fatty acids. Sometimes I look at the % of fatty acids, sometimes I look at the "numbers" depending on my mood. And I don't obsess about the answers I see -- when comparing two proposed recipes, a few percent difference in the fatty acid percentages is insignificant. Make the recipes and see how they actually perform before deciding which you prefer.

In general, I want a low to zero % for the short-chain FAs (lauric and myristic). These fatty acids add fluffy bubbles and solubility, but also can add strong cleansing and can be irritating to sensitive or dry skin. I want a medium to medium high % for the palmitic and stearic (subtract "cleansing" from "hardness" to get this answer). This helps make a long lasting, mild bar with a nice amount of dense lather. What's left, by default, is the oleic, linoleic, etc. acids that add mildness and solubility.

For a basic bath bar that works best for me, I typically look for for a "hardness" in the upper 30% to lower 40% and a "cleansing" in the mid to low teens. Once I get that, the rest of the recipe more or less falls into place.
 
I don't thing hardness and conditioning are antagonistic. I do think lather and conditioning are antagonistic. What are you using to bring more hardness? You can use lard (which is more conditioning than tallow or palm, but makes a very hard bar). You can also try 5% beeswax, or maybe a bit of shea butter or cocoa butter to really boost hardness and conditioning.
 
Castor Oil9.000.0901.4440.822Coconut Oil, 92 deg7.000.0701.1231.753Olive Oil18.000.1802.8881.654Palm Kernel Oil18.000.1802.8881.655Palm Oil12.000.1201.9254.436Sunflower Oil27.000.2704.32122.477Cocoa Butter9.000.0901.4440.82 Totals100.001.00016.00453.59Soap Bar QualityRangeYour RecipeHardness29 - 5437Cleansing12 - 2217Conditioning44 - 6960Bubbly14 - 4625Creamy16 - 4828Iodine41 - 7072INS136 - 165135Lauric12Myristic4Palmitic14Stearic6Ricinoleic8Oleic28Linoleic24Linolenic0
What does everyone think? will this be too soft, with enough conditioning?
 
:headbanging:eek:h no!
when I put the recipe on the reply it didn't look anything like what is posted, I will have to try to re-do it! computers!
 
^^Yup, that'd be good!

Along the lines of shooting for numbers... If you're looking for a hard bar, I interpret (perhaps incorrectly) that you don't want a goopy mess. Then I advise making sure your soap is drained well, through use of a soap saver, open grates or the like.
 
have been away for a bit so just now managed to re-do the recipes.
We can have hard dry winters, so we don't want something that is going to be on the harsh side of things, but I also want a soap bar that is going to last a reasonable amount of time under normal circumstances...


recipe #1
Castor oil 9%
Coconut oil 7%
Olive oil 18%
Palm kernel oil 18%
Palm oil 12 %
Sunflower oil 27%

Hardness 37
Cleansing 17
Conditioning 60
Bubbly 25
Creamy 28
Iodine 72
Ins 135


Recipe #2
Castor oil 10%
Cocoa butter 7 %
Coconut oil 9 %
Olive oil 13%
Palm kernel oil 17%
Palm oil 12%
Sunflower oil 32%

Hardness 36
Cleansing 17
Conditioning 61
Bubbly 26
Creamy 28
Iodine 75
Ins 134

 
 
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