How important are the numbers?

I was playing on SoapCalc trying to come up with a recipe that doesn't have coconut oil (formulating for someone who is allergic to it), and I haven't really played around with the numbers much because I haven't formulated my own recipe yet, but I was wondering, how important are those numbers?

My biggest problem is that the different combos I was trying (which didn't have any reason, just playing to see results) were all giving me a cleansing number of 0. Now, that number seems like it might be important in a soap..or am I wrong?

I guess I just never really heard anyone talk about them much before so I don't know what exactly they do, I'd also be happy to read links if anyone has them

Thanks!

Cleansing in soap numbers refers to the amount of oils that soap can strip from your skin.
http://www.soapcalc.net/info/SoapQualities.asp

Soap with a 0 cleansing will clean. Soap with a high cleansing number will be more likely to remove the natural surface oils from your skin.

It seems that most of the plant-based oils have low, if not 0, cleansing numbers while the animal based oils have a bit higher. I do not remember ever seeing any with a higher than coconut. You can make very nice soaps without coconut. I use animal fats and coconut oils in most of mine, but I have made some without either.

You can use palm kernel oil instead of coconut oil. They are pretty much the same.
As for the "numbers" on soap calc. they don't mean anything! If you want to learn to learn how to formulate look at the fatty acid profiles of the oils. Learn what effect those acids have in soap. I know to some I must sound like a broken record but going by the "numbers" is NOT the way to formulate.

sistrum, I figured there were other ways to do it, I'm just new so wondered how much I should be considering those numbers. I also figured a soap with a 0 cleansing number would technically clean. To me, the way you explained it Genny, is that a soap with a 0 cleansing number will be rather mild? Whereas a soap with a higher number might be feel more drying because it's taking more of your body's natural oils? Do I understand that correct?

I'm sure by playing around with it I can come up with something good, as long as the numbers don't really mean a whole lot LOL

As someone who cleans her face with pure oil, a low cleansing is very appealing, something to get the dirtand sweat off, but leave some of the protective layer of oils.

What oils have low cleansing?

I was looking at cocoa butter, olive oil, sunflower oil, castor oil, safflower oil, beeswax for hardness. I'm pretty sure all the combos I tried came up with a 0 cleansing number. I have no idea if any of those combined would actually make a decent bar though! The most recent I was looking at was olive oil, cocoa butter and castor oil..I think it sounds like a nice bar, will have to give it a shot and see I guess..and I know that had a cleansing of 0.

misskat22 said:

To me, the way you explained it Genny, is that a soap with a 0 cleansing number will be rather mild? Whereas a soap with a higher number might be feel more drying because it's taking more of your body's natural oils? Do I understand that correct?

Click to expand...

Exactly But then also, soapcalc doesn't take the SF% into consideration with the numbers. So, if you have a high cleansing number recipe, but have a SF of about 20%, it's most likely not going to be drying.

misskat22 said:

I was looking at cocoa butter, olive oil, sunflower oil, castor oil, safflower oil, beeswax for hardness. I'm pretty sure all the combos I tried came up with a 0 cleansing number. I have no idea if any of those combined would actually make a decent bar though! The most recent I was looking at was olive oil, cocoa butter and castor oil..I think it sounds like a nice bar, will have to give it a shot and see I guess..and I know that had a cleansing of 0.

Click to expand...

but consider Castile soap which is 100% olive oil. It has a 0 for cleansing also, but it is well liked by many people. I have never tried it, but I know people who will use nothing else. Personally I like the lower cleansing numbers. I only want a high one if I am looking for a stain remover for laundry or something.

don't worry about a low cleansing number unless you are looking for something for the purpose of removing oil. if you are looking for a nice face or bath soap even a 0 cleansing will give you a good cleaning. It would not strip your skin of all the natural oils leaving your skin feeling tight and dried out. Of course soaps with high numbers can be counteracted by changing the SF % you use.

I wouldn't worry about the numbers too much. I prefer low cleansing as a matter of course as my skin is pretty dry. However, if you are formulating for a guy, they tend to prefer higher cleansing numbers.

As was mentioned earlier, you could try PKO as a substitute. Or babassu.

judymoody said:

I wouldn't worry about the numbers too much...

Click to expand...

I think "the numbers" have something of value to contribute to soap making, as long as the reasoning behind the numbers is also available. Problem is, I have had no luck finding out that background information -- so far at least!

Speaking of numbers, What is INS? And did I read it should be between 130-165?

From what I gather, the original meaning of "INS" is lost in the mists of history, but it was developed as a way to figure out what blends of fats would work well for commercial soap making. For handmade soap makers, the INS value is not quite as meaningful, since we are not as focused on making tons of soap for a mass market, but INS can be a reasonable guideline to check when designing a soap recipe.

If a fat has a high INS number, the fat will saponify easily and make a hard soap that cleanses well.

Which fats have high INS values? Coconut is at the top of the list at an INS of about 258, followed by palm kernel, tallow, cocoa butter, palm oil, lard, and shea with INS of 115-230.

Fats with middle INS values of 60-105 are olive, avocado, almond, castor, corn, canola, beeswax, sunflower, and soybean.

At the bottom are fats with INS under 60, such as jojoba, evening primrose, rosehip, and flaxseed (linseed).

Soap calculators like soapcalc recommend a combined INS number somewhere between 135 to 170 which is reasonable for a general purpose type of soap. A single fat such as lard (INS of about 140) would fit the bill. But so would a blend of coconut (INS about 258 ) and olive (INS about 105).

Obviously a lard soap has different qualities than a coconut-olive soap even if the INS happens to be the same, so INS is not the only property that a handcrafted soap maker might want to look at. It's just a useful guideline; definitely not an absolute.

Here is more about the origins of INS and how to calculate INS values: http://www.jaschesoap.com/homemade-soap/cold-process/soap-ins-values/

Hope this helps! --DeeAnna

Here is another link that may help you SoapPapaw. This one is commonly referenced when the very question you asked, is asked. This is from soapcalc.net, a commonly used soapmaking calculator, and gives some info about each characteristic of soap properties.

http://www.soapcalc.net/info/SoapQualities.asp

also curious about SoapCalc numbers

I kind of highjacked another thread asking questions about the value of the SoapCalc numbers and someone suggested the subject it would make a good thread on it's own and I agreed. I was going to start one but then I reasoned that someone HAD to of asked about it at least once already so I searched and found this one. Here is the post I was going to copy for starting a new thread, I'm really curious to hear about others experiences and/or comments about those pesky numbers!

Everyone has been so helpful, I really appreciate the willingness of you all to share your hard-earned knowledge. As someone who only plans to make soap for myself and a little bit of gifting, I have found it invaluable--it has shortened the learning curve considerably.
I have another question about interpreting the soapcalc numbers. I decided I should just go to some tried and true recipes from experienced soapers instead of starting right out making up my own and like a good little soaper, I run any recipe through a lye calculator before I think about using it. I was hoping I could learn something by comparing the numbers with the book's description of the soap but I ended up even more confused.
The recipe I'm using for an example is from a book by Delores Boone; in the description she says that the oils are easy to obtain and are economical but have minimal conditioning. It uses canola, castor, CO, and OO; SoapCalc gives it a 79 for conditioning. Isn't that the high end of the range?
So, I played around some more. I don't remember the exact oils I used, I just remember that I was not using CO, I think it had lard or Crisco, sunflower and cocoa butter, just something simple like that. My hardness was low and conditioning was so-so. So, I decided to keep increasing the percentage of cocoa butter (because I had read it contributed to hardness) and see what it said. But every time I raised the percentage of cocoa butter and reduced the liquid oil I was using, the hardness number went down! And it didn't help with the conditioning at all. I'm beginning to think there's no point in looking at those numbers at all and that's kind of discouraging because for someone who won't make pounds and pounds of soap, being able to use something like that to help choose what to do could be so helpful.
So what do you think people? How do you interpret the numbers? Or do you not use them at all?:crazy:

Hey, cm4bleenmb -- see these threads:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=40414
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=39953
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38562
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38763
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38708

Oh, and these too:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38207
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38181

Found more:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36564
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36717
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36775

I can't really explain what was going on when you were evaluating the effect of cocoa butter on your recipe -- I'd have to know more or be sitting next to you as you work for me to be able to help you understand the results you saw. All I can say is the SoapCalc numbers don't lie, but I concede they don't always tell us what we are expecting to hear. I'm going to share something I've been working on for awhile -- it may be helpful to you or it might not, but here goes:

*********

When evaulating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. The Hardness number does NOT tell you how hard the soap will be after cure -- for example, castile (100% olive oil) soap has a low hardness number, but is very hard after a good cure. The Hardness number also does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids.

The cleansing number is a measure of how water soluble the soap is, meaning how easily the soap will dissolve and perform in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water.

The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will still clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

1/4/2015 update: Is it more important to have a high "conditioning" number or a low "cleansing" number when formulating a mild soap? And why? See this post for more: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=468038&postcount=10

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids.

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to clean gently. A high conditioning number is not good for a laundry soap that needs to be an efficient cleanser, but it is appropriate in a soap made to clean delicate or sensitive skin.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids.

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long.

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right?

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


Okay, whew, I quit for now!

I "heart" DeeAnna!

Thank you!

Thank you DeeAnna, I clipped this whole page to my evernote.

Now THERE is an article idea!