Soap Calc's are decieving!

Last try (again)

First of all, let's park whether or not soaps with more or less water get hotter and focus on the ability to change phase as a standalone:

Soaps with more water will change phase at lower temperatures than soaps with less water. Soaps with very low water will need to reach such temperatures to change phase that it might not be practical or even desired to take a soap there.

Back to water and temperature of soap in general, even if a soap with more water doesn't get as hot, it's can still very easily reach that temperature where the water amount means that the phase can change. Even if lower water soaps get hotter, it might not reach that point that it needs to be able to change phase. You can heat it up in some ways, of course, but it still might not do it.

Primrose said:

I guess I have to admire you for being so certain that you are correct, when in fact you are wrong. Repeatedly saying it, doesn't make it true.

Btw - I'm not a fellow

Click to expand...

That's where this thread has taken a twist and a mind of its own and the misconception of heat is skewed with gelling.
When I talk about low water I am talking about a 50:50 water lye ratio. Anything less and crystallization is a certainty and there just might be a chance you are correct. Water does seem to carry that heat and make the heat last longer. But, at the same time, it is inversely proportional to temperature. As more water is added the heat will drop.
Temperature wise, low water does get hotter then medium water. However, where the misinterpretation of what is better is skewed even for you! Let me ask you this. The amount of TIME in the gel phase is the factor that has been forgotten about.
Would you rather your soap gel for 2 hours or would you rather your soap gel for 4 hours. It seems gelling, if your going to gel, is important. But time is also a key factor. That is where low water fails. Both reach gel phase but low water comes out of gel phase quicker. It is not the highest heat, if your looking for gelling, that is the most important which is where we are getting confused. It is the reasonable length of time in the gel phase. High water has the lowest temperature rating, takes the longest there, and probably takes the longest to get out of gel phase. And if you think about, that is probably the reason that they have to stay in the mold the longest. It takes forever just for you to cut it.
And if you still don't believe me then try this..
Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn, page 307.
In addition, I was never talking about radiant heat. Always, in anything, the further away the heat source, the lower the temperature.

Time doesn't mean Jack to me actually, because whether it's two or four hours it's still 24-36 hours before I can cut my recipe; thus I make it in the evening and insulate it to encourage gel and don't look at it again until the next evening.

Why are you hung up on time?

You still haven't answered my question where I asked you to explain why my low milk batter has stayed white instead of gelling. If the answer is time, it is several weeks old now and still looks the same; I think we are well and truly past gel stage LOL

Mmm...maybe you mean scorched milk? some post earlier, you said that milk has a smell. Butyric acid in milk meets lye, it will create a distinctive stink, and the temperature being higher, will make it stinkier.

And did you use the SAME recipe in these experiments? If you are not using same recipe, same oils, the soap will NOT last for the same period of time.

If you use Soapee calc, there is a number called longevity. It's Hardness - cleansing number. (if you're using soap calc ) You want your soap to last as long as possible, try bump up the Lard, tallow, or palm oil usage rate. Or bump up palmitic and stearic acid number. ( correct me if I am wrong, had a insomnia night ,and now I'm dizzy )


ETA: your soap is beautiful. Maybe try make more beautiful soaps, do more experiments, and not spent too many time on thinking about water...

Milk only scorches when mixing with lye, not when gelling

SudsanSoaps said:

I'm I understanding correctly that
Low water gels at 200 but only reaches 140
Medium water gels at 160 and heats itself to 160
High water gels at 140 and heats itself to 180

Are you the same sudsansoaps on you tube?

Those were just random numbers for clarification.

Click to expand...

Hi there,
I understand your using random numbers and I get it.
This is how it goes (mostly:-?)
When I started this thread, just a few days ago, this is where I was at / Low water gets hotter and still goes through the gel phase| emphasis on period here| It is quicker to remove from the mold and I can use more oil thus have more soap instead of water.
Since then, through the help of a ghost swirl picture of goats milk earlier in this thread my thinking has evolved further and is backed up by the very challenge from this website, books, and this Aunty Clara woman from South Africa.
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
I read this article after I formulated what I am about to say but even this Clara person says lower water is hotter.
My new line of thinking has skewed a little and this is why -
Gelling, as far as I know, does nothing but brighten color. That is it period!
If you notice on the link that I give, her brighter color yellow is on the inside, the duller yellow is on the outside.
It is NOT brighter because the higher water got hotter. It is brighter because the higher water amount stayed hot the longest. It was not the hottest but it stayed in the gel phase for a sufficient amount of time. Time is also a factor that needs to be considered.
Low water reaches gel phase like a rocket. It is the hottest but like a rocket it fizzles out quicker. If you notice on the milk bars, a couple of pages ago in this thread, his low water part turned out white and his high water turned a darker beige?? His diagnosis I presume is that since one part turned darker and the other part whiter then the darker part is what got hot. Right answer but opposite side of the field. The theory that I said above still applies.
His low water shot up like a rocket,gelled and fizzled out fast, and then started reducing temperature. It was not a sufficient amount of time to affect the color of the proteins and sugars in his milk.! In fact, if I make goats milk I just might go this route on a small test sample instead of keeping it cool to prevent spoilage. To test this here is a hypothesis question: Which milk would you drink - a milk that was in the microwave for a minute OR a milk that was in the microwave for 5 minutes...Both temperatures are the same in the microwave but which one would spoil first?
And, if you ask me about the cooler temp of more water then I 'll just have to go in on the whole molecule thing and how the water transfers heat from the lye to the oil. As more and more water is introduced the farther and farther the heat source is - the lye.
Heat has an inverse relationship with gel.
As the temperature rises, the length of time it needs to gel is shorter.
Higher water is proportionate to gel - The more water the longer the gel phase. Too much water and the wait time will be forever and you might get a sticky mess.
Temperature has an inverse relationship with water. The higher the water content the lower the temperature which also lengthens the gel phase (which the soap might not ever get out of).
So, before I just wanted a quick gel phase and still get it out of the mold the next day. I still want to do that.
But however, I might not get quite as bright of a color as I should have gotten if I just reduce the temperature a little by adding some (as in going from 1x the lye to maybe 1.1 and 1.4 times the lye) extra water.
So, my thinking has evolved somewhat but I still stand by the fact that lower water gets hotter and is not synonymous with a longer gel phase because that is not the case.

Do you see what I am saying now?
Also, how good the mold is in insulation, the outside temp exchanging with the loaf temperature and things like that also effect the heat but by itself, in the extreme heat department, low water wins hands down.
There is a downside extreme heat also.

Primrose said:

Milk only scorches when mixing with lye, not when gelling

Click to expand...

If I said scorch then what I was meaning was that it was in gel phase long enough to effect the sugar and proteins color.
The higher water produces a longer gel phase. The lower water produces a shorter gel phase and cools off quicker (as in unmolding and cutting). That is why the lower water part of his bar stayed white. It was not an efficient amount of time to effect the color.
Temperature is not synonymous with gelling and it has an inverse relationship. The higher the temperature the shorter the gel phase. The length of gel phase is what you want to produce color. The only way to do that is add more then a 50:50 lye solution. As you probably already know, this is why your high water recipes can take forever to get out of the mold.

iwannasoap said:

Low water reaches gel phase like a rocket.

Click to expand...

But you are saying this as if it is an absolute which is absolutely 100% false and NOT TRUE.

I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket (or at all if I do not cover, insulate, or otherwise make sure the soap is warm enough to gel)
The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps. I can leave them on the counter unaided, mold exposed uncovered and they will gel almost every time without any added insulation.
This is not a guess, or what I *think* will happen, it's been proven by me to me with actual real life soaping experience.

I think the main reason people do not think you know what you are talking about, or are disagreeing with you so much is because you present everything as an absolute without anybody else's benefit of actual real life experience.

Just because that is what you have experienced, and that's what happens with your particular soaps/recipes, does not mean that it is an absolute and the ONLY THING that can or even WILL happen.
It just isn't. And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary.

jcandleattic said:

But you are saying this as if it is an absolute which is absolutely 100% false and NOT TRUE.

I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket (or at all if I do not cover, insulate, or otherwise make sure the soap is warm enough to gel)
The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps. I can leave them on the counter unaided, mold exposed uncovered and they will gel almost every time without any added insulation.
This is not a guess, or what I *think* will happen, it's been proven by me to me with actual real life soaping experience.

I think the main reason people do not think you know what you are talking about, or are disagreeing with you so much is because you present everything as an absolute without anybody else's benefit of actual real life experience.

Just because that is what you have experienced, and that's what happens with your particular soaps/recipes, does not mean that it is an absolute and the ONLY THING that can or even WILL happen.
It just isn't. And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary.

Click to expand...

Read Scientific soapmaking pg 306
AND read this link carefully
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
She does not say as extensively as I do but she says the same thing and refers to the same book!
Since I have reduced my water I do not get soda ash period, covered, not covered, period!
Notice, if you read carefully, she says the same thing.
Like I said earlier. Temperature and gel phase are two different things and are not to be confused with each other. That is the major misunderstanding in this thread. Lower water reaches gel phase quicker, does its thing, and starts cooling. Adding water is like turning the thermostat down to take a little more time in the gel phase because the brilliancy in color is what you want. The downside to adding more and more water is it takes longer and much longer to get out of the gel phase. An example to that is having to wait more then one day to unmold, maybe up to a week and then hope you don't get a sticky mess. It is "time" in the gel that you are forgetting about (me too) and are confusing with heat. The more heat the shorter the gel phase. This is the exact reason for hot process soap and looking at it like this fits like a glove.

One more thing - If you have to force gel you might want to re-exam how your lye is calculated, whether or not you are superfatting too much or even the quality of your oil and/or the SAP value of your oil. I am not there so I can only say the extreme causes. Oh yeah, I forgot - the size AND/OR insulation of what you are making also has everything to gel. Small things have a hard time gelling and will not hold heat so you have to put it in the oven for about an hour.

cherrycoke216 said:

Mmm...maybe you mean scorched milk? some post earlier, you said that milk has a smell. Butyric acid in milk meets lye, it will create a distinctive stink, and the temperature being higher, will make it stinkier.

And did you use the SAME recipe in these experiments? If you are not using same recipe, same oils, the soap will NOT last for the same period of time.

If you use Soapee calc, there is a number called longevity. It's Hardness - cleansing number. (if you're using soap calc ) You want your soap to last as long as possible, try bump up the Lard, tallow, or palm oil usage rate. Or bump up palmitic and stearic acid number. ( correct me if I am wrong, had a insomnia night ,and now I'm dizzy )


ETA: your soap is beautiful. Maybe try make more beautiful soaps, do more experiments, and not spent too many time on thinking about water...

Click to expand...

That was funny! Thanks.

"...I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket ... The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps.... And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary...."

Dunn's and others' research and my observations agree precisely with your experience, JC.

New soapers ... beware. Iwanna is making a lot of forceful, repetitive statements about what this person believes to be true, but repetition and forcefulness (and belittling other people in the process) do NOT mean what this person is saying is actually correct. I can't stop this, but I can and will continue to warn.

Ok see now its just getting annoying that you keep referring to me as a man. I would have though my username being Primrose would give you an idea that I'm female, but then I pointed it out to you directly that I'm not a man, yet you keep referring to me as "him/his"

That being put aside ... not the white coloured, low milk portion of my soap didn't gel. Sorry but no matter how many time you say it, it doesn't make it true. If it "gelled like a rocket" as you put it, it still would have changed colour. Quite simply, its white because it didn't gel at all.

And my recipes take a few days to unmould because I use mostly liquid oils (bastille). Not because of high water (milk).

But it did gel my friend! It just heated up faster, gelled and then started cooling. It was not an efficient amount of time to effect the color of the sugars and proteins or what ever it does in gel phase. Everything in nature requires efficient enough time or energy. Even melting steel colors shift and change phase. If the heat is applied is weak then a greater amount of time is required to change the color of steel as its heating. If you don't mind, while I was looking for your response, I found a similar question and this is what I typed. Pleas pay close attention. My wife said I lost her (she was looking at her cellphone).

Hi there,
I understand your using random numbers and I get it.
This is how it goes (mostly:???
When I started this thread, just a few days ago, this is where I was at / Low water gets hotter and still goes through the gel phase| emphasis on period here| It is quicker to remove from the mold and I can use more oil thus have more soap instead of water.
Since then, through the help of a ghost swirl picture of goats milk earlier in this thread my thinking has evolved further and is backed up by the very challenge from this website, books, and this Aunty Clara woman from South Africa.
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
I read this article after I formulated what I am about to say but even this Clara person says lower water is hotter.
My new line of thinking has skewed a little and this is why -
Gelling, as far as I know, does nothing but brighten color. That is it period!
If you notice on the link that I give, her brighter color yellow is on the inside, the duller yellow is on the outside.
It is NOT brighter because the higher water got hotter. It is brighter because the higher water amount stayed hot the longest. It was not the hottest but it stayed in the gel phase for a sufficient amount of time. Time is also a factor that needs to be considered.
Low water reaches gel phase like a rocket. It is the hottest but like a rocket it fizzles out quicker. If you notice on the milk bars, a couple of pages ago in this thread, his low water part turned out white and his high water turned a darker beige?? His diagnosis I presume is that since one part turned darker and the other part whiter then the darker part is what got hot. Right answer but opposite side of the field. The theory that I said above still applies.
His low water shot up like a rocket,gelled and fizzled out fast, and then started reducing temperature. It was not a sufficient amount of time to affect the color of the proteins and sugars in his milk.! In fact, if I make goats milk I just might go this route on a small test sample instead of keeping it cool to prevent spoilage. To test this here is a hypothesis question: Which milk would you drink - a milk that was in the microwave for a minute OR a milk that was in the microwave for 5 minutes...Both temperatures are the same in the microwave but which one would spoil first?
And, if you ask me about the cooler temp of more water then I 'll just have to go in on the whole molecule thing and how the water transfers heat from the lye to the oil. As more and more water is introduced the farther and farther the heat source is - the lye.
Heat has an inverse relationship with gel.
As the temperature rises, the length of time it needs to gel is shorter.
Higher water is proportionate to gel - The more water the longer the gel phase. Too much water and the wait time will be forever and you might get a sticky mess.
Temperature has an inverse relationship with water. The higher the water content the lower the temperature which also lengthens the gel phase (which the soap might not ever get out of).
So, before I just wanted a quick gel phase and still get it out of the mold the next day. I still want to do that.
But however, I might not get quite as bright of a color as I should have gotten if I just reduce the temperature a little by adding some (as in going from 1x the lye to maybe 1.1 and 1.4 times the lye) extra water.
So, my thinking has evolved somewhat but I still stand by the fact that lower water gets hotter and is not synonymous with a longer gel phase because that is not the case.

Do you see what I am saying now?
Also, how good the mold is in insulation, the outside temp exchanging with the loaf temperature and things like that also effect the heat but by itself, in the extreme heat department, low water wins hands down.
There is a downside extreme heat also.

It can't die if we keep feeding it!

(He says, tossing it another bone.) :twisted:

BrewerGeorge said:

It can't die if we keep feeding it!

(He says, tossing it another bone.) :twisted:

Click to expand...

Lol..

Primrose said:

Ok see now its just getting annoying that you keep referring to me as a man. I would have though my username being Primrose would give you an idea that I'm female, but then I pointed it out to you directly that I'm not a man, yet you keep referring to me as "him/his"

That being put aside ... not the white coloured, low milk portion of my soap didn't gel. Sorry but no matter how many time you say it, it doesn't make it true. If it "gelled like a rocket" as you put it, it still would have changed colour. Quite simply, its white because it didn't gel at all.

And my recipes take a few days to unmould because I use mostly liquid oils (bastille). Not because of high water (milk).

Click to expand...

I might not have read the part where you said you were a woman and you probably can tell I am a man because of my stupidity. I didn't know, and still don't, what a Primrose is and I apologise?
Hmm, I am not the only one who says what I have said. But from what I have read so far, I am the only one who says ALL of this wrapped up together.
This Auntie Clara person says the same thing in "less water gets hotter".
Kevin Dunn also says the same thing who has tested this very thoroughly in his book.
They also say that like medium water, low water also goes into the gel phase. The gel phase is shorter for low water. Just because soap reaches gel phase does not mean it will all of a sudden brighten the colors and in fact doesn't even need the gel phase as proof of putting soap in the freezer.
The AMOUNT of Time (because heat is not sufficient enough in soap making) is what brightens your colors. The "length of time" is the major factor and that is the real reason why a little more water is useful.

And you must have meant "Castile" and that is a perfect example.
And I would like to elaborate here but I don't know what your lye:water ratio is and your lye amount for xx amount of OO.
And I will tell you this though for certainty. If you stop believing in "Full water" and "Discounted water" and lower your ratio, you'll be getting that loaf out the next day and cutting! OO resists very well the saponification process and doesn't want to let go of its molecular chain.

Primrose said:

Milk only scorches when mixing with lye, not when gelling

Click to expand...

You just helped to prove my point
The temperature of lye water can and will get just as hot or hotter then the gel phase. Not only that it is hot for a sufficient enough time to spoil the milk so to speak. From what you say, your milk is not spoiled at gel phase. Exactly. It is the amount of time that will scorch it. If you don't think that time has anything to do with it then put your glass of milk in the microwave for about 5 minutes and drink it. I would much rather put my milk in for a minute and drink it.
And, I never was implying your milk was scorched by its color. I think I did ask though
A marsh mellow is scorched and its a beautiful golden color!
By the way, that goats milk soap was great by the way

DeeAnna said:

"...I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket ... The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps.... And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary...."

Dunn's and others' research and my observations agree precisely with your experience, JC.

New soapers ... beware. Iwanna is making a lot of forceful, repetitive statements about what this person believes to be true, but repetition and forcefulness (and belittling other people in the process) do NOT mean what this person is saying is actually correct. I can't stop this, but I can and will continue to warn.

Click to expand...

In my reply earlier, I did not read your name. I have however done my homework earlier this morning and would like to compliment you on your work so it puzzles me what exactly your argument is and what you disagree with because it definitely looks like you know what your doing.

And, Belittling? How did I do that exactly. And even if I did, which I didn't, it also means that there could be a little more humility. Don't you think?
Like I said earlier, If I would have read your name I would have not offered any help. You don't need any.

And most importantly, I don't know exactly what you mean by this "Dunn's and others' research and my observations agree precisely with your experience, JC. "

Would you mind explaining that?
Ohh, wait a minute I think I get it. I am not saying that.
Firstly, I made nothing of this up. What do you think I have been reading this whole time? NOthing, Thin air. Do you really think I have been making it up? Ever time one of you says no its not true and gives me a link what do you think I find on the very link itself? The very thing that they say is not true winds up being true. How about this challenge of the ghost swirl? Where do the challenge came from? Even that says what I have been saying. It is not my idea and never was. I am just putting it together in one spot the best way I can!
What kevin dunn has said and what I have learned from this thread in the past few days and have been able to put two and two together and then read further information to back that Up (Clare somebody or another) proves that I have been putting it together correctly and it really sounds to me like you haven't or either you don't want no body to take you off that pretty throne your sitting on! NOW That was a direct jab!
I have been nice this whole time and have not belittled any one but simply put my take on it used with learning and listening from this thread and other places. just because you cannot put two and two together this fast, in just a couple of days, doesn't mean that you should disagree just to be disagreeing!
Isn't that what your really doing? If fact I am so sure that I have it right now I will say this "You are good enough to know better and I believe you do!"
Every time you get on here you really have no proof to back up what you say? When in fact I do. I'm probably wording it closer then you ever have! That is how positive I am and I thank every one else who has contributed to this thread. You have helped me become a better soaper.:evil:

For certain persons in particular, if you have made it this far, to honestly make at least one and if possible make more then one loaf.
Make each loaf with these water:lye ratios
50:50 (being careful to scrape the sides of the bowl like DeeAnna says)

40:60 and 30:70 ratios and please record your temperatures every hour
and get back on here and record your temps. If you have a laser thermometer please take it from the side of the silicone mold unless it is wooden. It would be very interesting to accumulate accurate info for every body to read and would help newer people.

SudsanSoaps said:

I'm I understanding correctly that
Low water gels at 200 but only reaches 140
Medium water gels at 160 and heats itself to 160
High water gels at 140 and heats itself to 180

Those were just random numbers for clarification.

Click to expand...

Are you the same SudsnSoaps on youtube? If you are keep your kid in the videos. I think he's great and you make it a family affair. Love that stove top too. In addition, if your the same one, i read a comment talking how she didn't like your kid in the video. Totally defended you. And I like your use of color and you are definitely organized. If it is you, I think your a hard act to follow. I have actually taken your tips and watched and listened very well and have actually modeled somewhat after what you do!

iwannasoap said:

Are you the same SudsnSoaps on youtube? If you are keep your kid in the videos. I think he's great and you make it a family affair. Love that stove top too. In addition, if your the same one, i read a comment talking how she didn't like your kid in the video. Totally defended you. And I like your use of color and you are definitely organized. If it is you, I think your a hard act to follow. I have actually taken your tips and watched and listened very well and have actually modeled somewhat after what you do!

Click to expand...

Nope that's not me. If I had known there already was one I'd have picked a different name. I did google it first.

SudsanSoaps said:

Nope that's not me. If I had known there already was one I'd have picked a different name. I did google it first.

Click to expand...

Darn! I think hers is spelled SudsNsuch or something like that.
But however, with a name like that I'm sure your soaps are good and would really like to hear your experiences so I can take it in our consideration. I promise I have said all that I'm going to say. It was a learning process for me though and I'm going to add a little more water but not for reasons that are said on here. But at least I know exactly why and not just rumors and wives tails. So, glad to meet you. Over and out and going to bed.

Steve85569 said:

I. just.wasted. 10 minutes. reading. this.

OP has mis-phrased and mis-calculated the chemistry involved in such a simple thing a making soap so as to make it so complicated only a lawyer or the OP can do it correctly.

Some people will remain unteachable no matter what. It is called contempt prior to investigation. There is no cure.

I really appreciate all of the help I got when I got here and that this forum was not full of threads like this one.:headbanging::headbanging::headbanging:

Click to expand...

Steve wins the internet!!!!

https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/controlling-trace-in-cold-process-soapmaking/

the fluidity of soap batter can be also affected by your choice of oils. High or low water is not the only thing affect fluidity.

see above link, especially this part: "HOW BASE OIL CHOICES (& THEIR FATTY ACIDS) RELATE TO TRACE IN COLD PROCESS SOAPMAKING" and the chart of fatty acid which accelerates or slows trace.

Bastille is Bastardized Castille. It means high portion of olive oil (like 72%, or 50%) in the recipe.

Maybe you are confusing workable time frame with temperature. Low water means your playing time with soap batter is SHORTER. High water means you have more time to play with soap batter.


https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-.../water-discounting-cold-process-soap-how-why/

"It is possible to water discount too much.*If your solution contains too much lye and not enough water, the mixture can become*extremely*hot and very, very dangerous. In addition, the lye may not have enough water to dissolve fully. In general, the absolute highest ratio of water to lye is 1:1. This means there is equal parts lye and water in the mixture, or 50/50. At this ratio, the lye is still able to dissolve, but will be very concentrated and somewhat difficult to work with. I do not recommend this ratio of water to lye. Some advanced soapers use a ratio of 40% lye to 60% water, but this is still an extremely concentrated solution, and may be very difficult to work with."

above is direct quote from soap queen site.


Are you confusing LYE SOLUTION temperature with SOAP BATTER temperature?

Do y'all think we could just let the OP continue to post, unanswered, into oblivion, and let this stupid thread die? Let's start now: no more replies to this idiocy. Seriously. Step away from the thread.