Can I make mildly translucent CP soap from scratch?

How translucent can I expect to get with CP? I don't expect it to be like glycerine, but it would be nice to find an alternative to melt and pour if I want to make something translucent. Am I asking for too much here?:crazy:

you can make transparent soap using alcohol. i know a sugar solution is usually added too, but i dont know if its required.

i dont know if you can do it CP tho, it might need to be HP.

but you CAN do it from scratch

i have a library book out on it called "Making Transparent Soap: the art of crafting, molding, scenting & coloring"

i just skimmed the book so far, so i dont know much yet, but it does have recipes to make your own scratch transparent soap.

i came across this page in the past on how to make transparent soap:
http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-make-transparent-soap.html

heres a video with someone attempting to make melt & pour from scratch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOVPvbwfscI

and here is another page on making melt & pour from scratch:
http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-make-melt-and-pour-soap-base.html



keep in mind that melt & pour frequently is transparent (but not always), but not all transparent soap is melt&pour. M&P means you can melt it to a liquid again....if you JUST make transparent soap, if you re-melt it, the transparency can go away and it wont melt to a nice smooth liquid like M&P does.


i have never attempted to make either transparent soap or M&P yet, this is just what i have seen on the web in the past and happened to have bookmarked.

i the book i have, they make totally transparent soaps from scratch

and i remember reading that the amount of alcohol you use is very important....too little will make your soap cloudy, and too much will ALSO make your soap cloudy.

and i also remember reading that the type of oil you use can determine how transparent the soap is....some oils do not get totally transparent even if you do the process for making transparent soap.


some of the recipes in the book use alcohol and glycerine both as the solvent
and some use just alcohol
they all use a sugar solution in the book

I haven't tried this yet but Sophia's Naturals did an experiment with HP soap and glycerin to make her own M&P - [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ4jQJUAxCw[/ame]

Cindy2428 said:

I haven't tried this yet but Sophia's Naturals did an experiment with HP soap and glycerin to make her own M&P - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ4jQJUAxCw

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it looks like she could only get translucent soap using 100% glycerine
for transparent maybe the alcohol is needed.

and her soap was bendy, but that might just be because it needs to dry longer? i could be wrong.


she did get ease of melting to a liquid with just 50% glycerine, which is nice if you want to make yourself a M&P base to make quick soaps with.

http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-make-transparent-soap.html

I have always wanted to give this a go.

I'm attending a soap making meetup where we are making translucent melt and pour. Its basically the methods from Failors book on making transparent soap, but with propylene glycol, glycerine and sugar water instead of alcohol. Will report back after Saturday!

Its basically like that curious soapmaker link that Saponista pointed to, I bet.

All of the solvents mentioned -- ethyl alcohol (aka "alcohol"), glycerin, table sugar, and propylene glycol, as well as other sugars, glycols, and alcohols -- are all related in that they all have one or more hydroxyl (OH) groups in their structure.

Soap molecules are highly soluble in any solvent or mixture of solvents that contains OH groups. When soap is dissolved in a solvent like these, the usual crystalline structure of the soap cannot form. Little or no crystalline structure => transparency or translucency.

Even castor oil is helpful when making transparent soaps. Castor is often used at a higher % in transparent soaps because it too has those helpful hydroxyl groups in its structure. Even in castor oil, those OH groups disrupt the formation of soap crystals, so castor oil also builds in more transparency. (And those OH groups are why a small addition of castor to a soap recipe will boost the lather in soaps with a blend of fats, even though a pure castor-oil soap doesn't lather much at all.)

One of the problems with transparent soap, as someone mentioned above, is that adding solvents to the soap makes the soap softer and more pliable. The solvents can also evaporate (especially the ethyl alcohol) which causes more shrinkage than you'd expect from a regular bar of soap. Table sugar can create a white haze on the surface of the soap called "efflorescence" as the water in the soap evaporates and the sugar crystallizes.

The point of using several solvents to make transparent soap is safety, cost, and long term good appearance. You could use just alcohol, as the original Pears soap was made, but you would need to consider the safety aspect of working with an expensive, highly flammable solvent. Many modern recipes for transparent soap avoid ethyl alcohol entirely, and I can truly appreciate why. High proof alcohol is not sold at all in some countries and US states. It's expensive where it is legal to be sold (like here in Iowa), and it's so very flammable. You could use just glycerin, a moderate cost, safe solvent, but the resulting soap is likely to be soft, pliable, and weepy. You could use just inexpensive table sugar, but the soap would eventually get efflorescence on the surface, greater shrinkage with time, and the soap can also weep in high humidity. Propylene glycol and sorbitol are modern solvents that attempt to avoid some of the problems of the older solvents (ethyl alcohol, glycern, and table sugar). The use of several solvents is a balancing act to get the best outcome.

Another problem with transparent soaps is the limitations on the types of recipes that are best suited to transparency. Theoretically you can use any soap recipe to make transparent soap, but some fats will result in the soap being only translucent vs. near transparent. The recipes best suited to high transparency don't necessarily make the best soap for the skin. A transparent soap will also not last as long because it's soft and will wear away faster, since it contains a high % of solvents and a lower % of actual soap. It's also not as long lived because it doesn't have the tough crystalline structure of a "regular" soap to reduce its solubility.

Not trying to argue anyone out of making transparent soap -- just pointing out the pros and cons and giving a little chemistry background. I'd like to make transparent soap one of these days myself, so it's been something I've been studying up on.

Thanks so much DeeAnna!!
Id just like to have some home-made M&P to make some fun embeds in CP soap and stuff like that. Seems knowing how to make your own would be a handy thing.

DeeAnna said:

.......... I'd like to make transparent soap one of these days myself, so it's been something I've been studying up on.

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So it seems! :shock:

Great post

And these solvents are what makes the soap meltable to a liquid state? I don't really care too much about transparency, but having a melt and pour soap available to make a quick soap or embed would be nice.

Does anyone know the min amount of solvent needed to make a soap melt and pourable?

and how long should you keep M&P in your cupboard to use for embeds? do they store for a long time, or should i just keep a small amount if not using it very much?

and is the alcohol in M&P drying??

Bear in mind that melt-and-pour is a transparent-translucent soap, but not all transparent soaps are M&P. Don't leap into making any particular recipe for transparent soap and assume you've got M&P.

If you heat M&P, it remains transparent. Other types of transparent soaps will become opaque if melted.

I don't have a lot of interest in making a M&P soap and I have no experience bathing with M&P, so I don't have answers about what types and amounts of solvents are needed for this type of soap or whether M&P soap is drying due to the alcohol or whatever. I'm pretty sure some of the references given in earlier posts in this thread discuss M&P soap. You might check them out.

Cindy2428 said:

I haven't tried this yet but Sophia's Naturals did an experiment with HP soap and glycerin to make her own M&P - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ4jQJUAxCw

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Just because I am always ready to try different techniques I can tell you hers does not work with a soap made with 24% Olive, 24% Palm, 20%Sunflower, 16% coconut, 10% Kokum Butter and 6% Castor. Using 70% glycerin to melt down 1 bar. The results were a not a truly transparent soap which I really did not expect after reading expermint run by Saxton, Crosby and Dunn from sceincejournal.hsc.edu. They also ended up with a puddle of liquid like I did when they used a soap made with coconut and palm. My bar stayed rubbery and as I mentioned started dripping pools of liquid.

DeeAnna said:

All of the solvents mentioned -- ethyl alcohol (aka "alcohol"), glycerin, table sugar, and propylene glycol, as well as other sugars, glycols, and alcohols -- are all related in that they all have one or more hydroxyl (OH) groups in their structure.

...

Even castor oil is helpful when making transparent soaps. Castor is often used at a higher % in transparent soaps because it too has those helpful hydroxyl groups in its structure. Even in castor oil, those OH groups disrupt the formation of soap crystals, so castor oil also builds in more transparency. (And those OH groups are why a small addition of castor to a soap recipe will boost the lather in soaps with a blend of fats, even though a pure castor-oil soap doesn't lather much at all.)

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What a great post once again! Just feeling lucky to be a member of this community. Thank you DeeAnna.

As it concerns Castor Oil and the "OH groups", after reading the above, I am thinking of having another "to do" experiments with

5% Castor
5% sugar
5% sorbitol
5% honey

to see if all the four above soaps will have the same lather when all other ingredients are the same.

ngian said:

What a great post once again! Just feeling lucky to be a member of this community. Thank you DeeAnna.

As it concerns Castor Oil and the "OH groups", after reading the above, I am thinking of having another "to do" experiments with

5% Castor
5% sugar
5% sorbitol
5% honey

to see if all the four above soaps will have the same lather when all other ingredients are the same.

Click to expand...

I will mention one other issue some m&p will end up with very low melt points such as one I made. It is a great soap, but wrinkles badly when poured due to the low melt point necessary to pour smooth. M&P making takes a lot of experimenting to get the correct melt point

cmzaha said:

I will mention one other issue some m&p will end up with very low melt points such as one I made. It is a great soap, but wrinkles badly when poured due to the low melt point necessary to pour smooth. M&P making takes a lot of experimenting to get the correct melt point

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Well I am not making melt & Pour, only cp.

This is a great thread! And DeeAnna, I love how much info you have to give out about all of this.
The husband just asked me today if it was possible to make a translucent cp soap. Since I'm so new at all of this, my best answer was that I thought you maybe could do it, something with using glycerine ... but that I truly and honestly didn't know.

Absolutely lovely all of the knowledge coming from this forum.

DeeAnna said:

All of the solvents mentioned -- ethyl alcohol (aka "alcohol"), glycerin, table sugar, and propylene glycol, as well as other sugars, glycols, and alcohols -- are all related in that they all have one or more hydroxyl (OH) groups in their structure.

Soap molecules are highly soluble in any solvent or mixture of solvents that contains OH groups. When soap is dissolved in a solvent like these, the usual crystalline structure of the soap cannot form. Little or no crystalline structure => transparency or translucency.

Click to expand...

After reading the above once again and also reading other forums and the Wikipedia, another wonder arises.

In CP soap the hydroxyl groups (-OH) that can be found in sugar, alcohol, Castor oil, sorbitol and others causes the final soap to have more lathering properties as these ingredients interfere with the crystalline structure of the soap's molecules making them more water soluble and thus more dissolved soap in our hands means more lather. I guess I am right so far.

But we all know that alcohol (also Castor is mentioned) can make a soap to seize and if my readings are correct this is happening because beer, wine ethereal oils that have eugenol and fragrances that have alcohol (maybe this is not true for Castor) break apart the fatty acids from the glycerine molecule and as free fatty acids they saponify rapidly. Please correct me if I am wrong on this or add anything that is also happening.

I have also heard that some advise to insert Isopropyl alcohol after the lye in the oils to make better saponification (OK I know it is not the best advice/explanation but maybe they give it when they are making a Castile and want to reach trace fast instead of maybe only discounting water) .

So as it concerns Isopropyl alcohol if we add it before the fatty acids are turned into soap they will make the oils-lye mix to seize but if we add it after trace it will slow down the saponification? I have this question as a soaper had issues with a batch that when she added a tincture to the soap at trace this had to stay over one week in order to unmold as it was too soft.

DeeAnna if you can solve the puzzle with all the above I would be greatfull.

"...beer, wine, ethereal oils that have eugenol, and fragrances that have alcohol (maybe this is not true for Castor) break apart the fatty acids from the glycerine molecule..."

There appears to be something going on from all the reports of alcohol accelerating trace, but I don't have an explanation to offer. It's not something I've looked into.

EOs with eugenol (such as clove EO) are a class apart from the alcohols. You need to be looking at them separately.

"... but if we add [isopropyl alcohol] after trace it will slow down the saponification?..."

Saponification is going strong at the time of trace, so I am not sure why alcohol at the very beginning would act much different than alcohol added at trace.

If you want to slow down saponification, then one way is to do something ... anything ... to cool and dilute the soap batter. Pretty much ANY liquid will work, not just alcohol. You can even set aside a reserved portion of the fats needed to make the soap and add them after the soap batter reaches a stable emulsion -- even this will temporarily slow down saponification.

"..a soaper had issues with a batch that when she added a tincture to the soap at trace this had to stay over one week in order to unmold as it was too soft. ..."

Any liquid added in excess, whether the liquid is water, fat, or alcohol, will make a soap softer at least for a time -- and in some cases permanently. I'd want to make sure it was actually the alcohol in the tincture that was the specific cause of this problem rather than the addition of a liquid, regardless of what it was.

Pears transparent soap was originally made by dissolving an NaOH soap in alcohol and then driving off the alcohol. The process took a long time and even when the soap was ready for sale, the soap was still on the softer side (having used the old Pears myself).